Friday, 29 November 2013

Conversation with an Atheist

Recently I got into a discussion in the comments section of this post. I wanted to post on it because I do think others who happen to wander here might benefit from it. I want to preface this conversation with the most excellent advice from the Bible that says to avoid all foolish arguments. To engage in a moral or theological discussion with an atheist most definitely falls in that category. We have no foundation for common ground where we can even attempt a reasonable discussion because he has completely different meanings for anything I have to say, thereby effectively placing a monkey wrench into the machinery of any useful dialogue. Pussy-footing around the facts isn't my style, if something needs to be said, I believe it should just be said without a lot of beating around the bush. That is what I enjoy about the writings of the Apostle Paul. Anyway, I do hope he eventually sees that he is headed for ultimate and eternal ruin, but it is beyond me how to get that across to him. Boomslang presents himself as a former or fallen away Christian. There's no such thing. Either he was never saved and he needs to become saved (if he ever hopes to avoid the thing he says he no longer believes in i.e. hell) or the Lord will eventually bring him back to the fold from where he has strayed.

Ok, here's the evidence for the Bible's wisdom in avoiding discussions with
rabid atheists:



Boomslang said:
Greetings. I don't know if you accept opposing view-points, but I guess that I'll take my chances. The worst thing that could happen, I guess, is that you delete my comment.

Here we go...

You say... "How many [Christians] truly believe that they are a 'wretch' (utterly depraved person headed for hell) who needs saving grace?"

If we exit the womb bound for and deserving to be incinerated in a "Lake of Fire", then we are essentially created guilty. This spits directly into the face of the very "free will" that you'll undoubtedly insist that we have. It would be as ridiculous as you throwing a goldfish into a bowl of water, saying it "chose" to jump in there, and then holding it accountable for being "wet".

"From what I can see, there are many (who) don't accept or believe they are truly 'that bad'."

Even if we are "that bad", no sentient being deserves to be perpetually tortured with fire 24/7. That is sick, it is barbaric, and it mocks "justice".

Also, if God's standard of "justice" is ideal, then I'm just wondering why today's Christians aren't legislating to enact a law that we just set fire to all those who are incarcerated and be done with it. Would you support setting fire to human beings, even if they were hardened criminals? If not, why not?

"If that was the case, then Jesus died for nothing, because then everyone would enter into His kingdom."

Help me out, here---doesn't this "God" you speak of desire to have all of his creation; ALL of his "children" be with him? Or does this idea somehow upset him, and in which case, I guess that would mean that he desires that some of his "children" go to "Hell". Correct? If that's the case, then what's the problem? Your position seems to be that since "Jesus" died on the cross, then, well, at least some people need to go to "Hell", otherwise, Jesus' death on the cross was an utter waste. If I'm right on that, then again I ask, what's the problem? Why attempt to get everyone to believe that they're "wretched" and in need of "saving", since those who don't believe it..e.g..me, will be going to "Hell", thus, ensuring that Jesus' death on the cross wasn't "a waste".

Can you put it into consistent terms for us? Thx.



My response:



    Hi Boomslang,

    If you truly believe every word of the Bible to be true no explanations would be required. The "free will" that you speak of does exist, once one is saved, because prior to being saved we are all "slaves to sin". You are only as free as you are allowed to be, and as a slave you are not free at all, any more than a dog is free to speak as a human being.

    Thanks for visiting, and for your views, which indeed I do disagree with because it goes directly against what God's word, the Bible, says. :)
    " Also, if God's standard of "justice" is ideal, then I'm just wondering why today's Christians aren't legislating to enact a law that we just set fire to all those who are incarcerated and be done with it. Would you support setting fire to human beings, even if they were hardened criminals? If not, why not? "


    I take all of the Bible together, not just the pieces that I want to accept throwing away the parts that I don't (which I see many do, or by over-spiritualizing them away so they no longer make any sense anyway)...the Bible says vengeance belongs to the Lord, and that He will repay. Why? Why repay with vengeance because people are just the way they were created to be? Because they WERE NOT originally created that way. Creation became junk because of the fall, which occurred because of free will. At that time man truly had the free will to obey or not obey. After the fall we could only obey the "god of this world" UNLESS God, the TRUE God made the way to be freed from the tyranny of the devil. There is a way, and it is through Jesus, not our own ability. Those who surrender (and it is a lack of doing, not a doing) to Jesus will be freed from this tyranny. Also those who under the Mosaic system that God chooses will also be with Him under Abraham, but since the time of the NT it is only by the blood of the Lord Jesus because the Mosaic system was replaced, and those branches who were relying on the old system were cut off but could be regrafted on through the new system, the age of grace replaced the age of the law. Now the law still has effect only to reveal that we are sinners in need of a Savior.

    The truth is easy to see, if you want to see it. If you want to remain in your fleshy wisdom and think you are smarter than those who believe the truth of the Bible, you will remain blind, and unsaved, and headed for hell.


Boomslang:
    Hi, again.

    Let's begin here...

    "If you truly believe every word of the Bible to be true no explanations would be required."

    It should go without saying that I don't believe every word of the bible, and yet, I'm the one requiring some explanations from you, that is, if you expect me to believe what you're asserting. If you don't expect me to believe what you're asserting, then fine, no biggie. I guess just keep doing what you're doing. Or did I misunderstand and you meant to say that you're not required to give me any explanations? If so, true, you're not required to do so, yet, here you are offering some explanations. So, I'm just not sure what you meant by your opening line there.

    "The 'free will' that you speak of does exist, once one is saved, because prior to being saved we are all 'slaves to sin'."

    Sorry, 'doesn't make sense. Logic says that we'd need to possess the freedom to choose(aka free will) to be "saved", before we could be saved, yet, you just said that we don't have any such freedom prior to being saved because we're "slaves to sin". Try again?

    "You are only as free as you are allowed to be, and as a slave you are not free at all, any more than a dog is free to speak as a human being."

    This is more or less the "sequel" to your previous contradictory statement. Let's review: If you were "not free at all" prior to being saved, then I'm curious how you chose "God" in the first place, which is the first step in getting "saved", as I understand it.

    "Thanks for visiting, and for your views[...]"

    Sure, no problem. Thanks for the material to work with.

    [...] which indeed I do disagree with because it goes directly against what God's word, the Bible, says."

    This is good news, you being a bible literalist, and all. In this case, you then recognize that the God of the bible, being omniscient, had prescience of the way that the world would turn out, specifically, that he knew the world would have both believers and nonbelievers. The bible makes clear that Christians will encounter skeptics/doubters/backsliders, etc., in which case, people like myself exist, necessarily. It would then seem that ministering to us, telling us we're "going to hell", yadda, yadda, is counterproductive. Yes?

    I'll see you handle this much before I dive into the rest of what you written.

    Peace and Mirth,

    Boomslang.


Me:
    The fact that you admit that you don't believe every word of the Bible ends our conversation, because you leave me nothing to have to discuss or explain because it will all be wasted on you. Unfortunate for you, and yes, you are enslaved, however you won't understand that because it takes believing the Spirit of God in order to have Him reveal the truth of it to you.

    End of conversation. You can continue to post and ridicule all you want, but there is no reason for me to continue to answer the mockings of a person who is deaf, dumb, and blind to the Truth.




Boomslang:






    "The fact that you admit that you don't believe every word of the Bible ends our conversation, because you leave me nothing to have to discuss or explain because it will all be wasted on you." ~ Susan

    Again, you're making contradictory statements. If I believed "every word of the Bible", including that bats are birds and that the earth is geocentric(just two of many scientific blunders in the bible), then you also would have nothing to explain, because I'd already (erroneously) be in agreement with you. So, you evidently have nothing to explain no matter how you look at it.

    You conclude with...

    "there is no reason for me to continue to answer the mockings of a person who is deaf, dumb, and blind to the Truth"

    Pointing out categorically stated, demonstrable falsehoods in the bible isn't "mocking"; it's simply pointing out facts. The language is there in plain black and white text for anyone reading who actually values facts over "unquestioning belief". And since it is apparent that you don't fall into that category, that's probably the reason we're seeing you resort to empty threats and name-calling. But then again, I must be sympathetic to a degree, because you're a victim of indoctrination just like I once was.
Me:



There was no name calling, there were no threats, except maybe the ones that are inside your own head and you imagine them to come from me. I hope that you do one day see the light, and repent. While you are alive you still have a chance. Once you leave this place your destination has been secured for the worse, for ever...and only God knows if you will turn before you leave here, if you are destined to you will, and if not, we are all only made of dust anyway. You came with nothing and you leave with nothing, so no big loss eh? Except there will be that eternal torment...you will be with the only thing that mattered most to you, yourself, eternal solitary confinement. Glad the Lord gave me the grace option, and since He gave it to me all that you call nonsense makes perfect sense. I think that you believe you were saved at one time, but I don't think you ever were...because if you truly were, you would repent of what you are doing. Since you aren't, your faith never was real to begin with. You can start now, if you'd set down your pride...but I think your pride is more important to you. Hope it keeps you happier in eternal misery.


Indoctrination is a different thing from faith altogether...perhaps YOU were indoctrinated...there is still time, hope you come to see the difference instead of seeing it as just another "contradiction"


Boomslang:



    While calling me "dumb" and "blind" aren't the most creative names I've heard on the school playground, they are derogatory, nonetheless, and meant as such.

    As for the threat, it's implicit in the book that you so proudly carry under your arm, and in your latest post you've made the threat explicit when you say...."Except there will be that eternal torment", aka, empty threat.

    "Once you leave this place your destination has been secured for the worse, for ever...and only God knows if you will turn before you leave here, if you are destined to you will, and if not, we are all only made of dust anyway."

    If "God" already knows my fate and I am "destined" for either "heaven" or "hell", then the freedom with which I'd presumably choose one or the other is an illusion, at best. So, so much for that whole "free will" rigmarole.

    "Glad the Lord gave me the grace option, and since He gave it to me all that you call nonsense makes perfect sense."

    If "Grace" is a tool with which you can stare directly at false statements and say, "That makes sense", for instance, that the sun revolves around the earth, that snakes talk, and that beating your slaves if "good" as long as you don't kill them, then whoever has given you this tool has done you a disservice, and I can manage just fine without that tool.

    "I think that you believe you were saved at one time, but I don't think you ever were"

    I see. *So, once "saved", always saved? Yes? If that's your position, then know that you've once again made the very "free will" you speak of obsolete. If I accept proposition X as being true, but yet, can never change my mind under any circumstances, then I'm the equivalent of a robot.

    "[....] your faith never was real to begin with."

    See here*

    "Hope it keeps you happier in eternal misery."

    Aw. What a lovely thing to say to someone. You are just overflowing with the love of Jesus, aren't you, dear?

    Well, fortunately, there's not one scrap of objective evidence that any of us are going anywhere when we expire, and if such nasty words are suppose to worry me or scare me into believing, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed, as I am as scared of going to Christian "Hell" as you are scared of going to "Jahannam"(Islamic "Hell"). In other words, not at all.

    "Indoctrination is a different thing from faith altogether"

    No it's not. "Faith", as in, unquestionable belief, is an essential part of the indoctrination process. "Faith" keeps Muslims believing in "Allah" and Hindus believing in "Brahma". You obviously think both groups are mistaken and self-deceived, and I agree they are, but if their "faith" can mislead them, then your "faith" can mislead you, just like I believe it has.

    Peace and Mirth,
Me:



I've given you more than I should have, because you won't "hear" me anyway, and you definitely don't "see" what I'm saying. I'm sure you will enjoy toying with these profound notions of yours all by yourself for eternity. Have fun


Boomslang:



    Given me? Good grief, you haven't given me anything that I haven't heard a bazillion times before, nor anything useful in convincing me that your typed assertions have a referent in reality. You have, 1) your assertions, and 2) your "faith", both of which come from your "Holy Book". A Muslim or Mormon has the same three things. Should I believe them? Am I also "dumb" and 'blind" because I don't just take their word for it?

    (that's a rhetorical question, BTW. The answer is "no", I shouldn't accept it)

    "I'm sure you will enjoy toying with these profound notions of yours all by yourself for eternity. Have fun"

    Evidently my notions are profound enough that you don't have reasonable responses to them. You have endless assertions, but nothing to support them but juvenile, trite, little insults. Congratulations.

2 comments:

  1. Hi Susan,
    You ran into boomSLANG too?
    I have had some interesting conversations with atheists and satanists and it seems all they want to do is drag one into a fight so they can say see, you are not at all like you claim to be. I like to just spend a lot of time praying for them in hope the Spirit of God will soften their hearts so they can see the Truth.

    Blessings,
    <><

    ReplyDelete
  2. Yes I agree Child of God. I think deep inside all of that arrogance is a very scared little boy trying to look very big and bad so no one will see his fear, and maybe he's even convinced himself of his "fearlessness".

    I do hope they will truly see it. I was hoping that being blunt would wake him up because I'm pretty certain he's heard all of the meek and mild soft words of encouragement. The Bible says we are to speak the truth in love and to speak with boldness. But after all is said and done I think prayer is still better than anything else, and perhaps whether it is the soft words or my blunt ones, God will use the good seeds and they will grow in His time.

    ReplyDelete


Please be as gracious as you would like others to be to you. Thank you :)


Please try to keep your comments on the topic of the post you are commenting on.

If there is a link to an article or podcast, or if there is an embedded video please view these before airing your views on the posting. If you clearly did not watch video/read link I may choose to remove your comment or leave your comment and then not respond to it ...particularly if you have a question that is already answered on link or video.

Opposing viewpoints are of course allowed here, however, I will limit such discussions to two or at most three further comments on one topic, so do try to get all your criticisms in while keeping that in mind, and don't take it personal....I just don't want to be bogged down with a constant barrage of replies that go on and on like a dog chasing it's tail in circles.