Tuesday, 17 March 2015

Another Post on Hell

I've touched on the topic of hell from time to time, I have a video on Bible Treasures here that explains from scripture what it is and why it is.

From most pastors descriptions of it we get this mental picture:


That isn't what I see in scripture. What I see is even more terrifying. This is what I see from the Bible what hell will be like:


The depictions of burning and agony are descriptions of "likeness"....like me trying to describe the color red to someone who is blind. From the descriptions of "outer darkness" and "weeping and gnashing of teeth" I see a consciousness that still has understanding and forever feels the horror of being outside of the presence of God (all that is good, merciful and true understanding of all things that are godly) to be left only with their own dark thoughts of selfishness seething and writhing in their conscious thoughts, in eternal, dark, solitary confinement to themselves, because it is themselves whom they worshiped instead of God.

A couple of posts ago Alice asked me to read a link (if you wish to search it out you can find it, but I won't put it here, I find it to be a huge waste of time and effort, so I hope to spare you that trouble). I did read this man's thoughts on the topic of hell and why he doesn't believe there is one...the same tired reason I keep hearing about: "A loving  God would not send anyone to hell", then gives only those verses that seem to support his notions that a "true god" (of his imaginings) could never send anyone to hell because it is God who is responsible for making us fallible, therefore, He will simply and graciously forgive everyone because it was all His fault to begin with...because God created us to be like Him and the only way we could become like Him is if we ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil....wait....isn't that what the serpent told Eve? And, isn't the serpent in the garden of Eden....satan, the devil?....so, was satan then actually telling Eve the.....truth? Sigh. Anyway, yeah, gave me a huge headache to read his ramblings....and, sadly, it is no wonder that poor Alice went further and further away from the truth by believing and trusting this kind of foolishness....if you can drop one fact given in the Bible, why not continue on and find more "evidence" that the Bible contradicts itself and that it's all just a bunch of stories or fairytales or what have you.

However, like it or not, there is a God, who sent His Son to die for our sins in our place, who will keep those who are born of His Spirit from getting their just desserts, hell. Whether we believe the truth or not, whether we want to believe whatever it is we would rather believe, it won't change the truth. Even if I could convince EVERYONE, that what is true really isn't, and that what I want to put in its place is so much better than what the Bible says is true, that my ideas are so much more profound, so logical, so appeasing and pleasant, so loving (I would be elevating myself in place of God here...do you see where I'm going with this?)...rejecting the truth of God, and wanting to replace my ideas with what God has made, and done, and what He promised He will do.....I have then made myself the emperor of the kingdom of myself....and He will give me the desires of my heart as a reward, or rather, as a punishment, because if I continue in that way, I will be in hell, with myself as my "god" forever, and my loyal subject is only myself, forever...and forever I will seethe in the reality of where that self love brought me.

God's love, however, is the kind that would die to self to save another. God's love is exemplified in Jesus, who died for sinners who did not deserve His love. His love doesn't save everyone. Those who love themselves so much that there is no room for God, will get what they worship, they will get what they love, they will end up with what they deserved. Those who repented, and humbled themselves before a holy God, who are born of His Spirit, and who then receive the gift of faith which brings them into true communion with Him (not as a religion, but as a reality) who would and do lay their lives down for their faith in Him, will get what they worship, eternity with a holy and loving God and all the good things that come with that eternal reward.

Seek Him while He yet may be found, and beg His forgiveness...and if you feel that He has not granted you the request of being renewed by Him, continue to be that beggar that begs His mercy, that seeks His forgiveness, and that seeks to forgive others and love others in the manner that He loves us.

God is a loving God, but He is also a just God. He will give everyone according to what we deserve. To those who seek forgiveness, He will forgive (not earned or deserved, it is grace). To those who seek self-gratification and self-righteousness and self-justification, He will give the reward of having themselves, forever, without Him, in hell, because hell is being eternally separated from God, eternally separated from the light of Truth, only  having yourself and your own lies and self-delusions to keep you company forever. Do not seek justice, because truly we all deserve that awful fate of being eternally separated from God. Instead of justice (eye for an eye) seek mercy and forgiveness, and if you continue in seeking He promised that He would lead you to Himself. That is my hope for all my unsaved family and friends, and for you dear reader that is reading this right now.

25 comments:

  1. Why do believe any of this is true at all Susan?

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    1. I know you state you no longer believe Jesus Alice, but I do, and Jesus talks about it being a fact. I believe Him more than I believe you or anyone else, that's why.

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    2. I'm going to touch on a couple of points over the next couple of days, points of contention I have with that article you directed me to a few days ago. (I found myself screaming at my computer at several points, but will only cover a couple)

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    3. Btw Alice, I asked a question on the other topic, I'll ask again: You state that you definitely were born of God's Spirit, and He states He doesn't lose any of His sheep, but that no one who has His Spirit can deny Jesus...so my question to you is

      "Does it bother you that most of your readers and supporters are atheists?"

      Why or why not?

      .....and that leads to "How then can you say you were born of the Spirit of God and now believe the things that you do?"

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    4. Yes, I know you believe in Jesus, but why?

      It doesn't bother me that most of my readers are atheists (more specifically de-converts) because that is what I'm writing about.


      I was a genuine, with my whole, heart, soul, and mind believer for almost 20 years. I found that under scrutiny, Christianity, the bible, the history, the claims, are not true in any objective way. If that is what damns me, then I guess God didn't want me to use my brain and had a lot of fun making me think I was chosen for all that time. How do you know you are born of the spirit? You don't until you persevere till the end. If I was tricked or self deceived, you don't know that you aren't.

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    5. I see a consciousness that still has understanding and forever feels the horror of being outside of the presence of God

      If god is omnipresent, then that is impossible. He's there, too, just withholding his mercy (that is supposed to endure forever).

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  2. To be honest, there was a period of time that I went through intense ....I'll call it "attacks" where I thought I wasn't saved, that I was just acting, going through the motions, dark, dark places, but continued to seek the Lord through it, knowing that if I ended up dying and going to hell I was only getting what I deserve anyway, my spirit getting crushed through it, and a deep knowing that if I don't go to hell it's all bonus...but through it changes happened inside of me that I can only attribute to God because I could not have done it, and I know that from what I've already gone through that God can and will bring me through anything and everything.

    Regarding what you know as omnipresence, nothing is impossible to God, there was a separation from God which occurred in the garden of Eden, and He could have made it permanent then at that time, but He made a way through that horrible situation, so that we can have a right relationship with Him...you are dangerously close to committing the unforgivable sin, if you haven't already...I hope there is still a chance for you, but your awful reasonings give me little hope these days...and don't blame that on God (although many do, so I guess you'll do whatever you want anyway) but God does provide His word and guidance through His Spirit, but it is out of mercy, through our humble admission of guilt and not deserving anything....you are in grave danger of the unpardonable sin...

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    1. "...and don't blame that on God..."



      Susan, If you don't believe in free will (which I can't see how you can being a 5 point Calvinist), it would most certainly be God's doing..

      Remember Romans 9?

      If my heart has been hardened (by him) then nothing you or anyone else can say will win me over, and God has chosen me for destruction. I don't say this lightly, because if it were true, it is certainly very grim. However, THIS is the God that you are worshipping, so you're not in the clear yet. He could chose to take his favor from you any day. You have no way of knowing how, but like me, it could happen.


      I know you have had personal spiritual experiences, as have I. In fact, that was the last thing I held onto before realizing none of this was true. There are other explanations for those experiences and those explanations are psychological. As I've said before, I didn't read the bible, study the religion and then decide it made sense. I had a spiritual experience and chalked it up to the only God I'd ever heard of (being a Westerner and all).


      It's sad to me that you've embraced a version of the faith that is so self-deprecating. Do you ever think you'd be more at peace without it?

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    2. About spiritual experience: I've had them before being saved (satanic) and after being saved (confirmed by scripture, Holy Spirit, pastors, other Christians, etc, not from myself they brought comfort and strength, helping me to endure during the deepest darkest moments of doubt) and it isn't experience I put much stock into, they only confirm what God has confirmed to me in many ways, but mostly through the Bible speaking directly to me when prior to being saved I could not make heads or tails, and like you, believed other people to teach me, and most of them were as deceived as the person with the link you sent to me.

      It's sad to me that you've embraced a version of the faith that is so self-deprecating. Do you ever think you'd be more at peace without it?

      It's called humility, and it isn't something I have to work at, just something I know and it brings me great comfort knowing that I don't have to carry the weight of what grieves God about my life, and I don't have to elevate myself to think myself better than other people, or better than "silly Christians who would be so naive as to believe the Bible" etc, God has given me a peace that I did not have before I was saved...I guess that is the most revealing part to me that you never were saved, otherwise that would be your nature as well. There is still time, continue in seeking Him with all your heart without giving up, without giving in to those voices that tell you "it's a lie" when that voice is coming from THE LIAR. You are listening to the wrong voice.

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  3. "I guess that is the most revealing part to me that you never were saved"

    So, in other words, once saved, always saved, is essentially what you're saying(on top of claiming to know people's experiences and intentions better than they do)

    If I'm understanding correctly(and I'm confident you'll correct me where I'm wrong), "God" elects someone as "His" by no will of their own, aka, "saving" them, and once that happens, "saved" is the way they'll stay until their last, dying breath.

    If I'm right so far, feel free to explain to me and your readership exactly where "free will" comes in after the point of election. As it stands, once elected, one presumably cannot do anything to change that by any will of their own. To me, that sounds an awful lot like a "robot", But again, perhaps you have an explanation that I haven't heard yet.

    "There is still time"

    Still time? For what? What can Alice or any other "unsaved" person do if it all boils down to who "God" elected(past tense, because this election process presumably took place before "creation")???

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    1. I removed the duplicate comment...just happened to see this now, but am getting ready to head out so don't ha e the time to give this the proper response, but I shall return! :)

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    2. Ok, I'm back. I'll try to answer your comments in order:

      1. On the question "once saved always saved" yes, sort of, because I don't fully agree with how it is often presented, but close enough...

      2. On knowing other people's experiences better than they do: no, but when things are said I can certainly see how those things that are being said line up with what the Bible says about such things.

      3. On God saving against (or at very least without the assistance of the individual being saved) people's will and then once they are saved they remain so until their dying breath: I can go into finer detail on the matter but I think they won't make any difference to you so I'll simply answer "yes"

      4. On Free will/robot :

      There are quite a few posts on this site that I give my view on this, although I am not God, however I do believe Him, and I do read His word not with the intent of wanting to undermine what He has said, but with the desire of truly wanting to know the truth, from God's perspective, and although I will forever fall short of fully understanding this, or anything in this world for that matter, I truly have accepted that God does know everything about this, and He executes His will perfectly.

      So, that being said I'll try to summarize my view on the free will/ robot puzzle with a question: Do you think a dog feels slighted because it cannot walk on two feet and talk like human beings? A dog can only do what it has been created to do. Even if it wants to talk in English or French or Chinese, it never will be able to do so because it is outside of the parameters of what a dog is capable of. So it is with any of us. Some things are simply outside of our ability to choose them. Is that unfair? In Roman chapter 9 Paul brings this up by saying: does the pot ask the potter "why did you make me like this?"...and the answer of course is that a lot is a lot, and cannot say anything one way or the other about whether the potter creates it to be a vase worth millions, or a chamber pot which will be used for defecation. That's about as in-depth as I care to go into this for this comment section. If it doesn't please you, oh well.

      5. Still time? For what:

      God said He interacts with us, He chooses whomever He wills on the parameters He has determined, and He has said He gives everyone time, so that is actually a question that is a personal one between you and the Creator that for your case can only be answered directly by Him. I would seek Him and seek Him, not giving up if it took 20 or more years, until that was resolved for you by Him, on His terms, in His perfect t time, which could be today, or next week, or 20 years from now, depending on His terms that He created you, knowing you the way He does, He would know the suitable timeframe to form His work in you and yes it is all dependent on His terms, His will, His performance to work such a work in you....or not.

      6. What can Alice or another unsaved person do: humble yourselves to the truth that you don't know God, and to the fact that you are arrogant in your thinking that you know more than God, or thinking that what you see as contradictory in scripture is actually evidence of ignorance and continually seek Him truly whether you think you will find Him or not, Hopi g that He will have mercy on you.

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    3. Sorry about the typos, did this on my tablet, I was able to catch most of them. Hopefully you can make sense of the ones I didn't catch. :)

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    4. "On the question 'once saved always saved' yes, sort of, because I don't fully agree with how it is often presented, but close enough." ~ Susan

      So, if "close enough" constitutes a "yes", my next question then becomes this: At the time of election, which according to Calvinist doctrine was "before the foundation of the world"(i.e..before any of us existed), each of us..e.g...you, me, Alice, and everyone else, in advance, was either elected, or not elected. a) yes, b) no.

      If "no", feel free to explain.

      If "yes", then I'd like to know if being "elected" is one and the same with being "saved"

      "On knowing other people's experiences better than they do: no, but when things are said I can certainly see how those things that are being said line up with what the Bible says about such things."

      You didn't provide any examples, so I'll provide one: By your own admission, you can't know someone's experiences better than they do(and I agree, you can't). But if I understand correctly, if someone were to tell you that they sought God and studied the Bible every bit as much as you did, and further, if they believed Christianity was true with every bit of fervor that you do, but later change their minds, then you feel that you are justified in saying they are lying about their experiences, and this is because, if the Bible says that you will encounter backsliders and doubters, etc., then you will. a) yes b) no

      If "no", feel free to point out where I've misunderstood.

      If "yes", and if you concede that your Bible tells you precisely that..i.e..that you will encounter backsliders, then do you also concede that if there were no backsliders or doubters, that the Bible would be wrong on that bit of "Prophecy"?

      "On God saving against (or at very least without the assistance of the individual being saved) people's will and then once they are saved they remain so until their dying breath: I can go into finer detail on the matter but I think they won't make any difference to you so I'll simply answer "yes'."

      Okay, "yes". ***So, if right this second as you read this paragraph God knows that Susan will take her last breath as a Calvinist, Bible-believing Christian, and Boomslang will take his last breath an believer-turned-Atheist, I'd like you to think really hard about when you tell Alice and others, "There's still time", because if God has prescience(a foreknowledge) of who will die believers and who will die non-believers, then logic says that none of us, not even God, can do anything to change that once the ball is set into motion. If the future can be changed, either by us, or God, then God was never certain about the future to begin with. Feel free to square this up.

      "There are quite a few posts on this site that I give my view on this, although I am not God, however I do believe Him, and I do read His word not with the intent of wanting to undermine what He has said, but with the desire of truly wanting to know the truth, from God's perspective[....]"

      I read the Bible with the intent of truly wanting to know the truth. Do you believe it's possible for someone to read the Bible with just as much desire to know the truth as you do, but still find it lacking?

      "I truly have accepted that God does know everything about this, and He executes His will perfectly."

      When he executes his will "perfectly", does that mean that from the time before the foundation of the world, that everything that was set into motion and is unfolding now, perfectly matches his desires, aka, his "Will"? Is that accurate?

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  4. Continued....

    "Do you think a dog feels slighted because it cannot walk on two feet and talk like human beings?"

    While I believe a dog can feel happiness, sadness, guilt, and yes, even jealously like humans, no, I don't think it is jealous or feels slighted that it cannot walk upright.

    "A dog can only do what it has been created to do."

    100% agreement. So, do you also agree 100% that dogs shouldn't be held responsible or accountable for not being able to do what they weren't created to do? And when you say "created", surely you're aware that some domesticated dogs were created by modern man, yes? If so, then do you also agree 100% that just because certain dogs were brought into existence by man, that this, alone, does not give man the right to abuse and cause unnecessary harm to these creatures?

    "So it is with any of us. Some things are simply outside of our ability to choose them. Is that unfair?"

    No, it's not unfair. It would only become unfair if I were expected to exceed the nature that I was given.

    "In Roman chapter 9 Paul brings this up by saying: does the pot ask the potter 'why did you make me like this?'...and the answer of course is that a lot is a lot, and cannot say anything one way or the other about whether the potter creates it to be a vase worth millions, or a chamber pot which will be used for defecation."

    So, in your mind, and I guess in the Bible's redactor's minds, sentient beings that can experience emotions such as pain, are on equal ground with inanimate objects such as clay pots and paper weights, etc. Is that a fair assessment?

    "That's about as in-depth as I care to go into this for this comment section. If it doesn't please you, oh well."

    I have to admit, this sort of raises an eyebrow because it pretty much tells me that you couldn't care less if we find any common ground. If that's the case, fine, but then why did you go through the trouble of responding? If you don't care one iota if I'm convinced by your arguments, then I have to wonder who you're trying to convince.

    "God said He interacts with us, He chooses whomever He wills on the parameters He has determined, and He has said He gives everyone time, so that is actually a question that is a personal one between you and the Creator that for your case can only be answered directly by Him."

    Well, actually, it's moot for me or anyone else to ask such a question, because, until/unless you can square-up God's prescience..i.e..an absolute knowledge of the future set of events, which of course would make that future immovable and solidified, then I'm afraid that "the time" is immaterial and my free will is an illusion. I go over this extensively here***, and unlike you, I actually care that you understand why I think you're wrong.

    "He created you, knowing you the way He does"

    Including, knowing that one day I'd find Christianity's claims lacking, and then deconvert. Susan, the Bible even foretells that not all will believe. You know this. So? What's the problem if all is aligning with the Bible and if all is going as planned?

    " What can Alice or another unsaved person do: humble yourselves to the truth that you don't know God, and to the fact that you are arrogant in your thinking that you know more than God"

    Is it possible for people like Alice and myself to do as you prescribed, but for God, by his sovereign will, to not save us? In fact - and I hate to sound like a broken record - but if Calvinism is true, couldn't it be the case that God simply chose not to elect us back from the foundation of the world?

    Yes? No? Maybe?

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    1. And when you say "created", surely you're aware that some domesticated dogs were created by modern man, yes?

      I would say that there is a huge vast difference between being manipulated and being created.

      So, in your mind, and I guess in the Bible's redactor's minds, sentient beings that can experience emotions such as pain, are on equal ground with inanimate objects such as clay pots and paper weights, etc. Is that a fair assessment?

      In this segment of scripture they are represented as both having been created by a creator. You are overstating the facts. The obvious relationship of creation/Creator is what is examined here.

      Is it possible for people like Alice and myself to do as you prescribed, but for God, by his sovereign will, to not save us?

      I suppose it is possible for that to be the case, my husband thinks it is a complete waste of time to hold this kind of a conversation, I see it more as an "and" rather than an "either/or" because God is not limited by our understanding or misunderstanding of how and why He does what He does. He understands our limitations because He has created us with those limitations. He also knows the full range of each of our abilities, and I believe we all fall short of using the maximum of the skills we have been given.

      If you are someone that used to think they believed Jesus then you are familiar with the parable of the four soils. Seeds (of the truth about God) fall on rocky or weedy or pathways, or good soil. Do we all have stony areas? or weedy (predisposition to and/or deepset sins)? or lives that have been trampled on? I believe we all do. Do we all have "good soil"? Hmm, now there's a question that I believe only the Lord knows.

      However I do know one thing: God is much more patient and generous than you or I, or any other human being who has ever lived on earth. His judgment is perfect, having perfect knowledge about all that is.

      I personally see it as very foolish to reject and scoff at a Creator who holds out forgiveness for all sin and think rejecting that and going to hell is a better choice. I realize that many, like you and Alice, have rejected a reality of hell...well, it's up to you to find out the hard way I guess...however this is the reason why I try to continue to dialogue with people like you....and I will hope my little seeds will find some "good ground" in you.

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    2. "I would say that there is a huge vast difference between being manipulated and being created." ~ Susan

      I assume that you, as a female Christian, are familiar with the biblical creation account of man needing a "helpmeet" and how God created a woman out of the rib of man, yes? IOW, women were not created ex nihilo, similar to how you contend that certain dogs were not created ex nihilo. Both were manipulated out of existing materials.

      Taking this into account, I just don't think the difference is so huge and vast. Thus, my question still remains.

      "You are overstating the facts."

      But they are important facts. Fact: Clay pots don't have any emotions; they cannot experience pain and suffering. Human beings, on the other hand, can and do experience those things.

      If the "potter" scripture was meant to convince me by analogy, then it needs to actually be analogous. It's not.

      "The obvious relationship of creation/Creator is what is examined here."

      For starters, to say it's "obvious" is to beg the question, which I'm sure you know is a logical fallacy. But for sake of discussion, yes, we can examine the "creation/Creator" hypothesis. I have done just that, and I found it wanting. I'm being asked to believe that it's perfectly fine that you, me, and the rest of the human race can be kicked around, drowned, and burned alive, by pure virtue that we have a "Creator" and he goes by the name "God".

      I asked: Is it possible for people like Alice and myself to do as you prescribed, but for God, by his sovereign will, to not save us?

      You answer: "I suppose it is possible for that to be the case[....]"

      Then at this point, I'm not sure why you'd bother discussing it and/or admonish deconverts such as Alice and myself to reconsider. For all you know, God chose not to make us part of the elect for reasons that you cannot understand, and by your own admission, you can't honestly say that that's not the case. So? Now what?

      "my husband thinks it is a complete waste of time to hold this kind of a conversation"

      That's fine, but I would like to think that you have a mind of your own. That being said, if your husband is also a Christian of the Calvinist faith, and if that is the true faith, then these conversations are most certainly a waste of time, but not for the reasons that either of you may think. No, they're a waste of time because - and I reiterate - if God's election process already took place before the foundation of the world, then the future is fixed. The implication, again, is that, if God already knows right this second that myself and Alice will go to our graves non-believers, then there is nothing that anyone...i.e..you, your husband, or anyone else, including God, can do about it. Our free will is a complete illusion. Basic logic confirms this.

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    3. continued....

      "God is much more patient and generous than you or I, or any other human being who has ever lived on earth" ~ Susan

      So, if you happen to want to convince a friend or family member of a "truth", and if, no matter how many chances you give them to see things your way they don't see things your way, would drowning them ever be an option? How about burning them alive? Throwing rocks at them? Having she-bears rip them to shreds?

      If these are preposterous questions and your answer is "no" on all counts, then you've just demonstrated to me that you, Susan, have more patience than the Christian biblegod.

      "I personally see it as very foolish to reject and scoff at a Creator who holds out forgiveness for all sin and think rejecting that and going to hell is a better choice."

      Here you've committed three fallacious arguments in one small paragraph. They are, ad hominem, strawman, and false dilemma.

      I'll concentrate on the last of them: You assume that if someone is skeptical of God's existence, that, oh, they are "rejecting God". For you, the options are, 1) believe in God, 2) reject God.

      I implore you to also consider that I'm skeptical of Allah's existence. Am I "rejecting" Allah? Or do I (like you) simple not believe Allah exists?

      That, Susan, is the third option. It just isn't conceivable to you that someone doesn't believe that the characters in your bible have a referent in reality. I don't think "hell" is a "better choice", Susan; I think it is a man-made concept that has no referent in reality, similar to how you probably think "Jahannam" is bunch of man-made non-sense. Well, I think the same of the Christian version of "hell".

      But here's the rub----even assuming that "hell' is real and that that's where I'll go, you cannot say with any amount of certainty that that's not precisely where your God wants me, or Alice, or anyone else. And who are you to second-guess "God", Susan?

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  5. Boomslang, you base your opinions on what you believe to be true, as do I. You do not believe in the Bible and hate the God of the Bible. I believe the Bible and love the Lord who created us and then when trouble reared its head, instead of scrapping the whole thing, made a way, His way, for us to be saved.

    You reject it and Him, I do not. It really is just that simple.

    I'll pray for you, because I do believe He is able to save even you, in His time....and if He chooses not to, that is perfect too because we can make mistakes, God does not. As I said previously, I do hope there is some good ground in you where good seeds won't get choked out.

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  6. "God is much more patient and generous than you or I, or any other human being who has ever lived on earth" ~ Susan

    So, if you happen to want to convince a friend or family member of a "truth", and if, no matter how many chances you give them to see things your way they don't see things your way, would drowning them ever be an option? How about burning them alive? Throwing rocks at them? Having she-bears rip them to shreds?

    If these are preposterous questions and your answer is "no" on all counts, then you've just demonstrated to me that you, Susan, have more patience than the Christian biblegod.~ boomSLANG



    That is a good point and I think one that gets brushed off quite a bit. We would NEVER consider doing to people what god has planned for the unconvinced.

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    1. That is because you and I are not perfect and wouldn't be doing it for a perfectly good reason, Alice. I doubt I can convince you (or Boomslang, or others like you) or anyone of the truth because you have your minds made up to what you want to believe, and you have the audacity to think you are very intelligent to do so. That's fine, just fine. All I can do is plant seeds, and if it only reaches poisoned soil, those seeds will die and yet God says His word does not come back to Him void of having done some good, if not for you, maybe others who may stumble by and read this conversation...who knows? Only God knows. He will eventually reveal the truth fully, now only partially. I often see it asked "Why doesn't He just reveal the whole truth now so everyone can be saved and not go through all of this pain and hardship?" Well, actually, it is explained in the Bible why, but since you reject God and His word, these things are a moot point, aren't they? You want to remain convinced that God is evil and hateful....and guess who else says this? The devil and his demons, and if that is who you want to evangelize for, that of course is totally up to you.

      Yes it is the Spirit of God that regenerates us, causes us to be born of the Spirit, and yes it is not of our will, but His that this happens, and without His Spirit you can do nothing. True. Is that a reason to blame Him and hate Him because you fail to believe? Eternity is a long time to throw that accusation on Him while you spew your hatred in solitary confinement with your lovely thoughts about yourself...and how much you hate the Creator/Redeemer. Is that a threat? No. Not a threat, just the way it is. He warned us just as you would warn your children not to cross the street without looking both ways.

      How do I know that people that say they were born again and then became atheists or agnostics or whatever you want to call it, were really not saved to begin with? Because the Bible says so, that's how I know, and I believe what it tells me over what you think you know.

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    2. I believe this conversation has run it's course. I'm not convincing anyone here of anything, the warnings are there for those who have ears to hear and a heart that wants to understand. It is becoming argumentative, and that is not helpful for anyone.

      Thanks Alice and Boomslang, for your thoughts on these matters, even though we disagree I believe it is a good exercise for me to challenge me for why I know that the Bible is true and why anyone who thinks they are "smarter than that" are very foolish. I hope the best for you both.

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  7. "Boomslang, you base your opinions on what you believe to be true, as do I." ~ Susan

    Except that my opinions align with reason and logic. And note, this is the same exact reason and logic that we both use to conclude that Islam and Scientology are man-made nonsense. The difference is, today I now apply that same reason and logic to the Christian faith, whereas, I contend that you do not.

    In any case, I've given highly detailed responses, above, and while I thank you for letting them go through moderation, you seem to have glossed over, if not completely ignored, most of them. But perhaps most revealing, we have your full admission that God, namely, the Calvinist' God, might not have saved people like me and Alice, having reasons that you cannot understand. And no, I don't "reject Him", because I don't believe that there's any "Him" to reject. What I do reject, if anything, is fallacious arguments.

    As for praying for me, it's moot, because by your own admission, God is going to exact his perfect will regardless of what we want, which includes you, Susan.

    So, yes, you might like to see people like Alice, and maybe even myself, "saved", and that's nice and all, but according to John Calvin himself, God might not want to "save" us. If eternal suffering is what God had in mind for Alice and me, and millions more, then that's the way it will be.

    All the best,

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  8. For the most part, Boomslang, your questions do not seem to want an actual answer, but rather a reason to argue and flaunt what you seem to perceive as a superior intellect that can dismantle anything given to you.

    There is one question amongst all that argumentativeness that I think was a good one, and one that deserves a blog post of it's own...perhaps next week.

    The question : " I'd like to know if being "elected" is one and the same with being "saved" "

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    1. I'll have to think and pray on that one....

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