Wednesday, 24 October 2018

Final Thoughts on Rapture Timing (part 6)

I say "final" with caution, lol, because I might pick this topic up again, but if I do it will  be on the Bible Treasures blog.

Since the previous posting I've been looking through several post trib videos to try to find the one I think best represents what I find in scripture on the topic. The one I chose is "pre wrath" and although I agree with most of what he says there are still some minor points that I am at variance with. He believes the rapture happens right after the opening of the 6th seal, and I see the rapture happening as part of the 7th seal with the sounding of the 7th trumpet. I do agree that the rapture is mentioned at the ending of the 6th seal, but that the revelation given to the Apostle John then telescopes into the events of that with the 7th seal; a minor point, as I said above.

Also, the pastor in the video (I couldn't catch his name, I think the person in the intro says "Pastor Ganz, but not sure. If you know who this pastor is please leave that information in the comments, thank you 🙂 ) ...the pastor in the video says "I don't know" quite frequently, and I appreciate that rather than him making stuff up to fit his thinking. I notice that he mentions having believed pre trib at one time, so perhaps there are things that might still be lingering and hindering his thinking, but there are many things that I don't understand as well, many of which will clear up as we get closer to the time of His returning.

I agree with this pastor that those who hold the pre-trib position won't be kept out of heaven for holding to a wrong doctrine. Many saved Christians that held to pre, mid, or post trib positions have already passed on to be with Jesus and are enjoying His presence.

If you hold to the pre-trib position, it is my hope that you can listen to the entirety of the video, and then add your disagreements or whatever you wish to add or ask in the comments only after hearing it all out. Please examine these scriptures that he references in their proper context and pray that Jesus will reveal the whole truth of the matter to you, regardless of what you have been taught in the past.

One more note that I don't think I have clearly commented on and that isn't really examined thoroughly in this video is the term "the time of Jacob's trouble". Pre-tribbers cite this as a reason why only Jews will be here for the great tribulation. From how I see it the scriptures say when I look at what is happening before our very eyes is the Church Age has already passed (or at very least is well on the way to having passed). Many churches are closing their doors, sadly. In my area there are many closed churches. One street over from us is a church that just had it's final meeting last Sunday. Many church buildings in our area are being remade into homes or businesses. The churches that do remain are a shadow of what they used to be, mostly teaching "prosperity and health" as compared with "repent for the time is at hand, turn from sin to Jesus or go to everlasting punishment" is seen as "old fashioned" or not keeping with the times. Many of us "old timers" that like that kind of preaching are passing away as well. That is why I believe the church age is fading away as attention is shifting more and more to Israel, and I believe that the main thrust of the antichrist's persecution will be focused on Israel, but of course those few who still truly believe in Jesus that won't take the antichrist's mark will also feel his (not the Lord's) wrath.

Again to reiterate, I ask that you please watch the entire video to the end before making a comment or question. Thank you. 💗

Thursday, 27 September 2018

The Church and The Great Tribulation (Rapture Thoughts part 5)


 Photo I took a couple years ago...


I've heard it said that because the great tribulation is also called "the time of Jacob's Trouble" it means the church is not present during the great tribulation. I want to hear what the Bible says about it and see if that is indeed what the Bible tells us.

Those who hold to the pre-trib version of eschatology will say that the elect mentioned in Matthew chapter 24 cannot be Christians but must be Jews that convert to become Christians after the Church has been raptured away prior to the beginning of the great tribulation. So let's examine the word elect in the rest of the New Testament to see if it only refers to converted Jews only.

First let's look at the word "elect". The Greek word is eklektos which comes from a word meaning selected  and is by implication "favourite" or "chosen". It is used a great many times in the new testament. Jesus uses this word, and He of course spoke with Jews, and the Jews today are still referred to as "the chosen people", but does that therefore mean it exclusively refers to only Jewish people?

In Matthew 24 Jesus tells His closest disciples this when they  ask Him about the end of the age:

Matthew 24:24, 29-31  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect....
  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.   And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Other places that this exact same Greek word is used the Bible is directing its admonition to all believers:

 Colossians 3:12  Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

and here in this next verse, Paul who is called the apostle to the Gentiles says to Titus:

Titus 1:1  Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Was Titus Jewish? According to Answers.com:



Where is Titus in The Bible from? 

As per Harper's Bible Dictionary (1954) pg. 765 "Titus, whose home was probably in Antioch or its neighborhood, was born of Gentile parents (Gal 2:3) and was a convert of Paul (Tit 1:4)". 

Also it is said of the saints mentioned in the book of Revelation that they are not Gentiles, but Jews that convert after the rapture because the word "church" only appears up to chapter 4 of the book. Does the Bible say that the term saints only applies to Jewish converts?

 Revelation 5:8  And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

 Revelation 11:18  And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 Revelation 13:7  And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

 Revelation 13:7-10  And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.   And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.   If any man have an ear, let him hear.   He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints

In fact, in the new testament the word "saints" every reference is always to the church....but according to the pre-trib tradition it changes to mean "Jewish converts to Jesus after the rapture of the Church" after chapter 4 of the book of Revelation begins and then magically again becomes all believers including the church after Jesus returns.

This is the verse that mentions what happens at the end of the millenium:

Revelation 20:9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

So are the saints mentioned in Revelation 20 only Jewish converts from the tribulation period? Or is the church counted in with those saints...? and if so, why isn't the word church now so stated?

Anyway, these are some things to ponder and bring before the Lord in all honesty, wanting the truth only, not man's traditions or wishes or fears dominating one's eschatology. In Jesus we have nothing to fear because if Jesus is for us who can be against us? They can kill our bodies but not our souls. Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus.

In my next post I shall share a video that tells even more about the problems with the pre-trib position, stating it much more concisely than I have done here. I hope that you will give all these things serious consideration, having the love of the real and whole truth always as the final reason for what we believe.

Friday, 21 September 2018

Corrie Ten Boom (Rapture Thoughts part 4)

Corrie Ten Boom suffered terribly during the second world war. She watched her dear sister suffer terribly and die in a Nazi camp. By God's grace she survived the terrible cruelty of that time. Years later she learned of the pre-trib rapture theory sweeping into the church. It concerned her greatly, especially after the trouble she had suffered. She realized that such a teaching would have weakened her and made her ill-prepared for what she was to suffer.

In Corrie's words:


There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this.  These are some of the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days.  Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world.  I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution.
In China, the Christians were told, “Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated — raptured.”  Then came a terrible persecution.  Millions of Christians were tortured to death.  Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly,

We have failed.  We should have made the people strong for persecution rather than telling them Jesus would come first.  Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution, how to stand when the tribulation comes — to stand and not faint.
I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ.  We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation.  There is no way to escape it.  We are next.
 http://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/rapture/corrie.html
  

I agree with Corrie. Many Christians in North America today think they are going to escape the coming tribulation, and that the relatively smooth and easy life they have been blessed to live will continue as it is until the Lord quickly and easily removes His loved ones before any suffering comes their way. They think a loving God would not allow true Christians to suffer, when the Bible clearly warns us that we, like He, will suffer great persecution at the hands of those who hate the Lord. Christians of the west have grown soft and flabby in their faith, relying on an easy way when the Bible warns that the narrow way is not easy at all.

A website that I like that has many articles about the post tribulation rapture position is located here:


http://endtimepilgrim.org/


I'm not saying I agree with everything they
say but as much as they agree with the Bible I also agree with them. We need to be ready for whatever is ahead for us. Of course it is possible that you and I might die tomorrow and escape the terrible days yet ahead. It is also possible that the pretrib rapture position is the correct one and if so, thank the Lord! That would be wonderful. BUT if the post trib position is correct and many Christians who are depending on a pretrib rapture instead of completely being dependant on the Lord through thick and thin come what may, might find their faith was grown and nurtured on a flabby diet of false hope and because their faith was built on a teaching and not on Jesus Himself, might not have been regenerated at all not having fully surrendered to His will, come what may. Those will fall away when they see the "man of sin", the antichrist, believing they have been forsaken by God because He didn't do as they were promised. I pray that isn't you, dear friend reading this. Please put your entire trust on what Jesus wills for your life, whatever that may entail, and trust that He will see you through just like He was with Shadrach, Meshach and Abbednego when they went through fire.

Monday, 10 September 2018

Matthew 24 (Rapture Thoughts part 3)

I am familiar with the pre trib idea that Matthew chapter 24 is "only for the Jews" however, I hope this blog posting will cause some to reconsider this notion as we compare Matthew 24 to the "rapture passages” in 1st and 2nd Thessalonians.

I saw a chart on a youtube video which I snapped with a screen save but the image was barely readable because it was so blurry. I hoped to find it at the webpage that was provided at the bottom of the chart but was unable to locate it. I will provide a link to the website at the bottom of this post and if you find you would like to try to hunt it down, you can be able to do so.

The chart compared a list of topics that are found in both sections so I shall post each topic with the verses that pertain to these things:


****************


Christ is the source of the information given 
Matthew 24:3-4  /  1 Thessalonians 4:15

Warning given: Do Not Be Deceived 
Matthew 24:4  /  2 Thessalonians 2:3


Subject of the Parousia
Matthew 24: 3, 27, 37, 39   /   1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1


Antichrist's Temple Activity
Matthew 24: 15  /  2 Thessalonians 2:4


Opposition by Antichrist,
Matthew 24:21, 22  /  2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 & v.9


Deceiving Signs & Wonders
Matthew 24:24  /   2Thessalonians 2:9


Apostasy of Many
Matthew 24:9-12  /  2 Thessalonians 2:3


Elect, Alive, and Survive
Matthew 24:22  /  1 Thessalonians 4:15, 17


Persecution Cut Short 
Matthew 24: 22, 29-31  /  2 Thessalonians 1:6-7; & 2:8


Initiation of the Parousia
Matthew 24: 27, & v. 30  /  1 Thessalonians 4:15


Parousia Comes After Appearance of the Antichrist
Matthew 24:29-30  /  2 Thessalonians 2:8

Parousia is Seen by All
Matthew 24:27-30  /  1 Thessalonians 4:16; & 2 Thessalonians 2:8

Jesus Comes in the Clouds
Matthew 24:30   /   1 Thessalonians 4:17

Angelic Presence With Jesus as He Comes
Matthew 24:31   /    1 Thessalonians :16 ; & 2 Thessalonians 1:7

Trumpet Sounds at His Coming
Matthew 24:31   /   1 Thessalonians 4:16


Gathers His Elect
Matthew 24:31   /   1 Thessalonians 4:17 ; & 2 Thessalonians 2:1

Mentioning of Peace and Safety
Matthew 24:37-41  /   1 Thessalonians 5:3, and 6-7


Mention of "Thief in the Night" 
Matthew 24: 43   /   1 Thessalonians 5:2-3


Warning of Sudden Destruction
Matthew 24: 37-41   /   1 Thessalonians 5:2-3

The Initiation of God's Wrath
Matthew 24:29-30; and 37-39  /   1 Thessalonians 5:1-3


We Are Not in Darkness
Matthew 24:32-33  /   1 Thessalonians 5:4-5


Warning Against Setting a Date of His Returning
Matthew 24:36   /   1 Thessalonians 5:1


Warning to Be Watchful / Expectant
Matthew 24:42-51  /   1 Thessalonians 5:6


**************


I want to point out a few areas of difference in understanding between pre and post tribbers on a few of the above mentioned topics:

On the topic of Parousia, pre tribbers say this only refers to the rapture which they maintain is a separate event at a separate time from the actual coming of Jesus. This is something I still need to dig into a bit further but the person who made this chart asserts that Parousia is an event that involves both the rapture and second coming happening at the same moment in time. I will do a word study on this in the next post.

Regarding the apostasy of many mentioned above....one cannot be truly born of God and apostasize (imo from many verses in the Bible) therefore I see this as many having a very shallow belief in Jesus that did not lead to the true conversion of the Spirit which Jesus called "born of the Spirit". One can have a "said faith" without having undergone the Spiritual transformation by the power of God, which is also referred to in scripture as being sealed by God.

Regarding the word tribulation being equal with the wrath of God (by pre tribbers). Post tribbers assert tribulation is not the same as the wrath of God. This requires careful study and discernment from the Holy Spirit.


Regarding Matthew 24 only being directed to nonChristian Jews who will still be here after the rapture... the video I watched which provided me the above list was narrated by Chris White. He felt that the fact that there was so much in common between the letters to Thessalonica and Matthew 24 give indication that Paul was referring to the words of Jesus as He spoke to His disciples recorded (later? not sure of that...but they still knew of this Olivet Discourse from apostles who were in attendance and were first hand witnesses of these sayings of Jesus, and who were still alive and with them) in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. The letters written to Thessalonica were written to Gentiles who converted to Jesus, the Church, aka the Elect. Pre tribbers like to say that the word "elect" only refers to Jews, however that isn't consistent with the rest of the NT which was written to Gentiles who were called "the elect".



Friday, 17 August 2018

Trumpets (Rapture Thoughts part 2)

Years ago I enjoyed listening to Chuck Missler. He always had interesting views on various topics. Then one day I heard his teaching on 1 Corinthians, and on that topic he mentioned that the "last trumpet" of 1 Corinthians 15 not being the same as the 7th trumpet mentioned in the book of Revelation, and the reason he gave for not believing they were the same was that there will be trumpets blown during the millennium.

1Corinthians 15:51-53  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

I would have asked him, if I could, when exactly THE LAST trumpet would sound at His coming because His coming is prior to the millennial kingdom at  which time He will reign over on the earth. If it couldn't be the last because there would be "millennial trumpets" sounding which would be after His second coming,,,,so the last trumpet isn’t the last trumpet?... Chuck recently went to be with the Lord so any misconceptions he may have had are all cleared up for him now.

Let's examine the passages in question carefully, Jesus also mentioned the sounding of a trumpet at His coming during what is now called "the Olivet Discourse" when He spoke of His returning. That conversation was recorded in three of the four gospels, but only the book of Matthew mentions the trumpet:

Matthew 24:29-31  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.   And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Pretribbers would object and say "this lecture given by Jesus at the Mount of Olives was only meant for the Jews because this is after the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled therefore the church gets removed via a secret rapture prior to His returning to earth", but I'm going to have to save that for a future post because I want to focus on one thing at a time and not go a hundred different directions in this post.

Paul also mentioned a trumpet sound to announce Jesus' returning, we already mentioned 1st Corinthians 15 (above) and in 1 Thessalonians the faithful were being shaken by a rumour that Jesus had already come so Paul said to them:

 1Thessalonians 4:15-18  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:   Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I want to also focus on some details; the signs in the heavens that are mentioned by Jesus, and the raising and gathering of the dead in Christ as given by Paul, but to be sure when Jesus said the angels would gather the elect from one end of heaven to the other, it would certainly include both living and dead saints. With those things in mind, let's take a look at what John told us about the 7th trumpet as it was shown to him in his vision  as recorded in the book of  Revelation.

At the opening of the 6th seal (the 7th seal begins the trumpets) we see signs in the heavens that look very much like those mentioned by Jesus in His Olivet Discourse:

Revelation 6:12-13  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

..and when introducing us to the 7th trumpet, John says:

Revelation 10:7  But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Something is finished at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, let's continue:

Revelation 11:15-19  And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.   And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,  Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.   And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.  And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail....

After the 7th trumpet John sees the battle in overview between Satan and the woman with child and Satan gets thrown out of heaven, the first and second beast are described and the 144,000 are sealed on their foreheads. And THEN the vials (or bowls) which is the wrath of God is poured out on those who took the mark of the beast and worshiped his image
 :
 Revelation 15:5-8  And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:  And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.  And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

The wrath of God is not poured out on the earth until after the 7th trumpet has sounded, and there are still people of God on the earth, but they have been sealed with the protection from God on their foreheads (compare this protection with the protection offered by the world with the mark on the foreheads given by the antichrist)

Also, there is an interesting event that happened during the life of Joshua, which gives us a prophetic foretaste of what happens in John's Revelation. Read what happened at Jericho in Joshua chapter 6 that I believe shows us a pattern of what would happen at the end of the fall of the future Babylon.

In the next blog post I want to explore if the Bible gives clear evidence that the "time of Jacob''s trouble" is only meant for Israel and if we can find clear evidence of the Church being raptured prior to the great tribulation.







Monday, 13 August 2018

Examing the Rapture Theories with What the Bible Says (part 1)

In the last post Pre-Trib vs. Post-Trib Revisited, I went back to a couple of posts from 2 years ago. It would be good to visit it and the links I provided at the bottom before continuing in this posting to give you a back drop to what will be discussed in this post. Elizabeth Prata commented on the posts from 2 years ago. She stated things that I will try to explan using the Bible to "see if these things are so" (Acts 17:11).

This is taken from one of Elizabeth's comments:

"The reason He calls out the church age believers from before the tribulation is so that He does not contradict himself. The Tribulation has 6 purposes, described in Dan 9:24. One is to atone for sins and another is to finish the transgression. In other words, punish the world for their unbelief and for their sins. Yet Paul said we are not appointed to wrath (1 Thess 5:9) and our sins are forgotten. (Col 2:13-14). Why would He forgive us, forget our sins, and then punish us for them? He would not."

Let's begin with the first sentence: The reason He calls out the church age believers from before the tribulation is so that He does not contradict himself.

 I agree with the last 5 words in that sentence. God absolutely does not contradict Himself. What we as fallible humans view as contradictions is often a faulty understanding on our part. We have a very limited scope of how we view things, and that includes even the most intelligent among us.

When we in our human understanding and human logic try to force what we think are contradictions into a better fit for our understanding of scripture, we run into trouble. Scripture explains itself, we do not need to fill in any perceived blanks with traditions and feelings. No one wants to suffer tribulation. That is a given. Does the Bible say that His elect will never suffer tribulation? There are several places in scripture that we find that we will suffer tribulation and that it isn't to punish us but to refine us. For example: 

Romans 5:3-5  And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;  And patience, experience; and experience, hope:  And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. 

Matthew 5:10-12  Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.   Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.  Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. 

1Thessalonians 3:3-4  That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.   For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. 

There are many other examples that show that suffering the tribulations of this world including the great tribulation that is to come is not given to the saints as punishment.

Elizabeth mentioned 1 Thessalonians 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ but equates the word "wrath" to mean the same as "tribulation". What do we find in scripture to help us understand what God means by His "wrath"?
We find the wrath of God being poured out in the bowl or vial judgments in the book of Revelation: 

Revelation 15:7  And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. 

And what does it say about who the wrath is poured on? 

The first clue is in Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. 

and another in 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds. 

So two things we learn about those who are receiving the wrath of God poured out on them is that they had taken the mark of the beast and worshipped his image, and they were unrepentant, and that this had to be occurring after the beast was revealed and after the mark of the beast had been fully implemented.  

Next time I hope to examine the scriptures in regards to more of the timing of the events of the great tribulation and the 7 trumpets and whether the Bible shows us if the 7th trumpet is the last trumpet... or not.

In the meantime, keep looking up (I'll explore that phrase in a future post as well).

Thursday, 9 August 2018

Pre-Trib vs. Post-Trib Revisited

https://www.quora.com/Do-we-die-and-then-wake-up-immediately-to-the-rapture

A couple of years ago I posted on this topic. I will put links to previous posts at the bottom of this one.

Before delving into this again, let me state right off the bat that I am in the category #3 group in the diagram given above.

Another point I wish to clarify which  many pretribbers erroneously claim is that posttribbers don't believe the rapture will occur. I have heard it often said that posttribbers do not believe in a rapture. In one sense it is true because we do not base our faith on a rapture as I see many pretribbers do. My faith is solidly based on Jesus Christ alone. But I do agree that there will be a "rapture" aka "meeting the Lord in the air", we just disagree on when that event will occur.

When I posted about it a couple of years ago, a dear blogger who is very passionate about her pretrib position and her faith in it, commented and provided links (which I also will provide at the bottom of this post. Her name is Elizabeth Prata. In our exchanges I noticed a couple of things: 1. she made several accusations, she implied that I didn't do my homework, that I have a responsibility to my readers to put up only factual (and I think she meant pre-trib by this) information, and that the source that I used for a link had made erroneous statements in the past (which is of course entirely possible, I didn't know that blogger, but I used his thoughts on the topic of post tribulation because it was easy to follow and explained the post tribulation position quite adequately). 2. She really wasn't up for a discussion, and when she saw that I didn't agree with her statements, she let me know that she no longer wished to converse with me and removed me from her blogger friends list. That is of course her prerogative. There are people that I prefer not to have conversations with and topics I prefer not to argue (or discuss, lol) about. At first I thought she was quite arrogant, no humility, she knows it all and you better acknowledge that fact...and maybe I was not being very generous in judging her that way. She does seem to be very knowledgeable, she obviously reads voraciously, and has little patience for those she deems "lazy"...

....but here's the real problem I have with the pre-trib theory...

If I'm wrong, let's say that I am, and the rapture happens before the awful final antichrist shows up to chip everyone with the mark of the beast. I join everyone that the Lord brings up to be with Him, no problem, I was wrong, it wouldn't have been the first time....but...

If I'm right and the Lord comes to rapture His saints at the end of the great tribulation, many people that were duped to believe the pre-trib rapture theory  will think the antichrist is not the antichrist and the mark of the beast could not possibly be the mark of the beast "because I haven't been raptured, therefore it cannot possibly be that".  And THAT is my main concern. Many are being deceived. In every sermon where I have heard mention of the proper way to study the Bible, the simple meaning of the text is always the main way to interpret the text properly. That proper way of reading needs to get thrown out the window when it comes to the pre-trib rapture theory. I will go into that in more detail in my next blog post, if the Lord is willing.

Links to previous posts (conversations with Elizabeth Prata in comments sections)

 http://susanflutterbys.blogspot.com/2012/01/signs-and-wonders-of-1800s.html

http://susanflutterbys.blogspot.com/2012/01/pretrib-assumptions-vs-what-does-bible.html

pre-trib links

http://jesusplusnothing.com/questions/PreTribRapture.htm

http://christinprophecy.org/articles/why-i-believe-in-a-pre-tribulation-rapture/

I shall post some post-tribulation links on the next blog post where I will go into specific verses and how they are represented by the pre-trib theorists compared with the plain reading of the text, Lord willing...