Friday 17 August 2018

Trumpets (Rapture Thoughts part 2)

Years ago I enjoyed listening to Chuck Missler. He always had interesting views on various topics. Then one day I heard his teaching on 1 Corinthians, and on that topic he mentioned that the "last trumpet" of 1 Corinthians 15 not being the same as the 7th trumpet mentioned in the book of Revelation, and the reason he gave for not believing they were the same was that there will be trumpets blown during the millennium.

1Corinthians 15:51-53  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

I would have asked him, if I could, when exactly THE LAST trumpet would sound at His coming because His coming is prior to the millennial kingdom at  which time He will reign over on the earth. If it couldn't be the last because there would be "millennial trumpets" sounding which would be after His second coming,,,,so the last trumpet isn’t the last trumpet?... Chuck recently went to be with the Lord so any misconceptions he may have had are all cleared up for him now.

Let's examine the passages in question carefully, Jesus also mentioned the sounding of a trumpet at His coming during what is now called "the Olivet Discourse" when He spoke of His returning. That conversation was recorded in three of the four gospels, but only the book of Matthew mentions the trumpet:

Matthew 24:29-31  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.   And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Pretribbers would object and say "this lecture given by Jesus at the Mount of Olives was only meant for the Jews because this is after the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled therefore the church gets removed via a secret rapture prior to His returning to earth", but I'm going to have to save that for a future post because I want to focus on one thing at a time and not go a hundred different directions in this post.

Paul also mentioned a trumpet sound to announce Jesus' returning, we already mentioned 1st Corinthians 15 (above) and in 1 Thessalonians the faithful were being shaken by a rumour that Jesus had already come so Paul said to them:

 1Thessalonians 4:15-18  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:   Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I want to also focus on some details; the signs in the heavens that are mentioned by Jesus, and the raising and gathering of the dead in Christ as given by Paul, but to be sure when Jesus said the angels would gather the elect from one end of heaven to the other, it would certainly include both living and dead saints. With those things in mind, let's take a look at what John told us about the 7th trumpet as it was shown to him in his vision  as recorded in the book of  Revelation.

At the opening of the 6th seal (the 7th seal begins the trumpets) we see signs in the heavens that look very much like those mentioned by Jesus in His Olivet Discourse:

Revelation 6:12-13  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

..and when introducing us to the 7th trumpet, John says:

Revelation 10:7  But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Something is finished at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, let's continue:

Revelation 11:15-19  And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.   And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,  Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.   And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.  And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail....

After the 7th trumpet John sees the battle in overview between Satan and the woman with child and Satan gets thrown out of heaven, the first and second beast are described and the 144,000 are sealed on their foreheads. And THEN the vials (or bowls) which is the wrath of God is poured out on those who took the mark of the beast and worshiped his image
 :
 Revelation 15:5-8  And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:  And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.  And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

The wrath of God is not poured out on the earth until after the 7th trumpet has sounded, and there are still people of God on the earth, but they have been sealed with the protection from God on their foreheads (compare this protection with the protection offered by the world with the mark on the foreheads given by the antichrist)

Also, there is an interesting event that happened during the life of Joshua, which gives us a prophetic foretaste of what happens in John's Revelation. Read what happened at Jericho in Joshua chapter 6 that I believe shows us a pattern of what would happen at the end of the fall of the future Babylon.

In the next blog post I want to explore if the Bible gives clear evidence that the "time of Jacob''s trouble" is only meant for Israel and if we can find clear evidence of the Church being raptured prior to the great tribulation.







Monday 13 August 2018

Examing the Rapture Theories with What the Bible Says (part 1)

In the last post Pre-Trib vs. Post-Trib Revisited, I went back to a couple of posts from 2 years ago. It would be good to visit it and the links I provided at the bottom before continuing in this posting to give you a back drop to what will be discussed in this post. Elizabeth Prata commented on the posts from 2 years ago. She stated things that I will try to explan using the Bible to "see if these things are so" (Acts 17:11).

This is taken from one of Elizabeth's comments:

"The reason He calls out the church age believers from before the tribulation is so that He does not contradict himself. The Tribulation has 6 purposes, described in Dan 9:24. One is to atone for sins and another is to finish the transgression. In other words, punish the world for their unbelief and for their sins. Yet Paul said we are not appointed to wrath (1 Thess 5:9) and our sins are forgotten. (Col 2:13-14). Why would He forgive us, forget our sins, and then punish us for them? He would not."

Let's begin with the first sentence: The reason He calls out the church age believers from before the tribulation is so that He does not contradict himself.

 I agree with the last 5 words in that sentence. God absolutely does not contradict Himself. What we as fallible humans view as contradictions is often a faulty understanding on our part. We have a very limited scope of how we view things, and that includes even the most intelligent among us.

When we in our human understanding and human logic try to force what we think are contradictions into a better fit for our understanding of scripture, we run into trouble. Scripture explains itself, we do not need to fill in any perceived blanks with traditions and feelings. No one wants to suffer tribulation. That is a given. Does the Bible say that His elect will never suffer tribulation? There are several places in scripture that we find that we will suffer tribulation and that it isn't to punish us but to refine us. For example: 

Romans 5:3-5  And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;  And patience, experience; and experience, hope:  And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. 

Matthew 5:10-12  Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.   Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.  Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. 

1Thessalonians 3:3-4  That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.   For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. 

There are many other examples that show that suffering the tribulations of this world including the great tribulation that is to come is not given to the saints as punishment.

Elizabeth mentioned 1 Thessalonians 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ but equates the word "wrath" to mean the same as "tribulation". What do we find in scripture to help us understand what God means by His "wrath"?
We find the wrath of God being poured out in the bowl or vial judgments in the book of Revelation: 

Revelation 15:7  And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. 

And what does it say about who the wrath is poured on? 

The first clue is in Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. 

and another in 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds. 

So two things we learn about those who are receiving the wrath of God poured out on them is that they had taken the mark of the beast and worshipped his image, and they were unrepentant, and that this had to be occurring after the beast was revealed and after the mark of the beast had been fully implemented.  

Next time I hope to examine the scriptures in regards to more of the timing of the events of the great tribulation and the 7 trumpets and whether the Bible shows us if the 7th trumpet is the last trumpet... or not.

In the meantime, keep looking up (I'll explore that phrase in a future post as well).

Thursday 9 August 2018

Pre-Trib vs. Post-Trib Revisited

https://www.quora.com/Do-we-die-and-then-wake-up-immediately-to-the-rapture

A couple of years ago I posted on this topic. I will put links to previous posts at the bottom of this one.

Before delving into this again, let me state right off the bat that I am in the category #3 group in the diagram given above.

Another point I wish to clarify which  many pretribbers erroneously claim is that posttribbers don't believe the rapture will occur. I have heard it often said that posttribbers do not believe in a rapture. In one sense it is true because we do not base our faith on a rapture as I see many pretribbers do. My faith is solidly based on Jesus Christ alone. But I do agree that there will be a "rapture" aka "meeting the Lord in the air", we just disagree on when that event will occur.

When I posted about it a couple of years ago, a dear blogger who is very passionate about her pretrib position and her faith in it, commented and provided links (which I also will provide at the bottom of this post. Her name is Elizabeth Prata. In our exchanges I noticed a couple of things: 1. she made several accusations, she implied that I didn't do my homework, that I have a responsibility to my readers to put up only factual (and I think she meant pre-trib by this) information, and that the source that I used for a link had made erroneous statements in the past (which is of course entirely possible, I didn't know that blogger, but I used his thoughts on the topic of post tribulation because it was easy to follow and explained the post tribulation position quite adequately). 2. She really wasn't up for a discussion, and when she saw that I didn't agree with her statements, she let me know that she no longer wished to converse with me and removed me from her blogger friends list. That is of course her prerogative. There are people that I prefer not to have conversations with and topics I prefer not to argue (or discuss, lol) about. At first I thought she was quite arrogant, no humility, she knows it all and you better acknowledge that fact...and maybe I was not being very generous in judging her that way. She does seem to be very knowledgeable, she obviously reads voraciously, and has little patience for those she deems "lazy"...

....but here's the real problem I have with the pre-trib theory...

If I'm wrong, let's say that I am, and the rapture happens before the awful final antichrist shows up to chip everyone with the mark of the beast. I join everyone that the Lord brings up to be with Him, no problem, I was wrong, it wouldn't have been the first time....but...

If I'm right and the Lord comes to rapture His saints at the end of the great tribulation, many people that were duped to believe the pre-trib rapture theory  will think the antichrist is not the antichrist and the mark of the beast could not possibly be the mark of the beast "because I haven't been raptured, therefore it cannot possibly be that".  And THAT is my main concern. Many are being deceived. In every sermon where I have heard mention of the proper way to study the Bible, the simple meaning of the text is always the main way to interpret the text properly. That proper way of reading needs to get thrown out the window when it comes to the pre-trib rapture theory. I will go into that in more detail in my next blog post, if the Lord is willing.

Links to previous posts (conversations with Elizabeth Prata in comments sections)

 http://susanflutterbys.blogspot.com/2012/01/signs-and-wonders-of-1800s.html

http://susanflutterbys.blogspot.com/2012/01/pretrib-assumptions-vs-what-does-bible.html

pre-trib links

http://jesusplusnothing.com/questions/PreTribRapture.htm

http://christinprophecy.org/articles/why-i-believe-in-a-pre-tribulation-rapture/

I shall post some post-tribulation links on the next blog post where I will go into specific verses and how they are represented by the pre-trib theorists compared with the plain reading of the text, Lord willing...


Tuesday 7 August 2018

Summer Blues....







A blogger friend posted a photo that reminded me of this one that hubby had taken of me in 2016 at Daytona Beach. The water was warm, it was a beautiful September morning...

Today I was somewhat melancholy that the summer seems to be passing by so quickly. The garden centers are having their sales to get rid of what inventory they still have to get rid of. I even saw some trees last weekend that were showing a slight bit of colour change. My how quickly time passes.

When I was first saved many, many years ago I was at the Lake Shrine in Pacific Palisades (a New Age church and park) reading through the New testament. The words were wonderful as they washed over me while I read them, but none of them stuck....I couldn't remember a thing of what I had read of the book of Romans, nor of Acts of the Apostles, nor of any of the gospels. I paused my reading as I pondered this sad fact, sending my thoughts to the Lord hoping He would help me. Just then, a young woman walked down the path from where the people were gathered ; church had just let out. She walked up to me and asked "Excuse me, do you have the time?" I glanced at my watch and told her what it showed me. She promptly thanked me and whisked back up the path. The very next verses I read were:

Romans 13:11-14
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.   The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.   Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.   But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof. (KJV)

That was 30 years ago. It seems with each passing year time  is speeding up. Even fallen man knows that the hour is late. Last time I heard about it, they moved the minute hand of the doomsday clock to 2 minutes to midnite. I pray that we will be ready for whatever lays ahead of us. The Lord will provide us with the wisdom and strength to meet it.....if we ask Him.