In the last post Pre-Trib vs. Post-Trib Revisited,
I went back to a couple of posts from 2 years ago. It would be good to
visit it and the links I provided at the bottom before continuing in this posting to
give you a back drop to what will be discussed in this post. Elizabeth
Prata commented on the posts from 2 years ago. She stated things that I
will try to explan using the Bible to "see if these things are so" (Acts
17:11).
This is taken from one of Elizabeth's comments:
"The reason He calls out the church age believers from before the tribulation is so that He does not contradict himself. The Tribulation has 6 purposes, described in Dan 9:24. One is to atone for sins and another is to finish the transgression. In other words, punish the world for their unbelief and for their sins. Yet Paul said we are not appointed to wrath (1 Thess 5:9) and our sins are forgotten. (Col 2:13-14). Why would He forgive us, forget our sins, and then punish us for them? He would not."
Let's begin with the first sentence: The reason He calls out the church age believers from before the tribulation is so that He does not contradict himself.
I agree with the last 5 words in that sentence. God absolutely does not contradict Himself. What we as fallible humans view as contradictions is often a faulty understanding on our part. We have a very limited scope of how we view things, and that includes even the most intelligent among us.
When we in our human understanding and human logic try to force what we think are contradictions into a better fit for our understanding of scripture, we run into trouble. Scripture explains itself, we do not need to fill in any perceived blanks with traditions and feelings. No one wants to suffer tribulation. That is a given. Does the Bible say that His elect will never suffer tribulation? There are several places in scripture that we find that we will suffer tribulation and that it isn't to punish us but to refine us. For example:
Romans 5:3-5 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Matthew 5:10-12 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
1Thessalonians 3:3-4 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
There are many other examples that show that suffering the tribulations of this world including the great tribulation that is to come is not given to the saints as punishment.
Elizabeth mentioned 1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ but equates the word "wrath" to mean the same as "tribulation". What do we find in scripture to help us understand what God means by His "wrath"?
We find the wrath of God being poured out in the bowl or vial judgments in the book of Revelation:
Revelation 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
And what does it say about who the wrath is poured on?
The first clue is in Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
and another in 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
So two things we learn about those who are receiving the wrath of God poured out on them is that they had taken the mark of the beast and worshipped his image, and they were unrepentant, and that this had to be occurring after the beast was revealed and after the mark of the beast had been fully implemented.
Next time I hope to examine the scriptures in regards to more of the timing of the events of the great tribulation and the 7 trumpets and whether the Bible shows us if the 7th trumpet is the last trumpet... or not.
In the meantime, keep looking up (I'll explore that phrase in a future post as well).
This is taken from one of Elizabeth's comments:
"The reason He calls out the church age believers from before the tribulation is so that He does not contradict himself. The Tribulation has 6 purposes, described in Dan 9:24. One is to atone for sins and another is to finish the transgression. In other words, punish the world for their unbelief and for their sins. Yet Paul said we are not appointed to wrath (1 Thess 5:9) and our sins are forgotten. (Col 2:13-14). Why would He forgive us, forget our sins, and then punish us for them? He would not."
Let's begin with the first sentence: The reason He calls out the church age believers from before the tribulation is so that He does not contradict himself.
I agree with the last 5 words in that sentence. God absolutely does not contradict Himself. What we as fallible humans view as contradictions is often a faulty understanding on our part. We have a very limited scope of how we view things, and that includes even the most intelligent among us.
When we in our human understanding and human logic try to force what we think are contradictions into a better fit for our understanding of scripture, we run into trouble. Scripture explains itself, we do not need to fill in any perceived blanks with traditions and feelings. No one wants to suffer tribulation. That is a given. Does the Bible say that His elect will never suffer tribulation? There are several places in scripture that we find that we will suffer tribulation and that it isn't to punish us but to refine us. For example:
Romans 5:3-5 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Matthew 5:10-12 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
1Thessalonians 3:3-4 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
There are many other examples that show that suffering the tribulations of this world including the great tribulation that is to come is not given to the saints as punishment.
Elizabeth mentioned 1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ but equates the word "wrath" to mean the same as "tribulation". What do we find in scripture to help us understand what God means by His "wrath"?
We find the wrath of God being poured out in the bowl or vial judgments in the book of Revelation:
Revelation 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
And what does it say about who the wrath is poured on?
The first clue is in Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
and another in 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
So two things we learn about those who are receiving the wrath of God poured out on them is that they had taken the mark of the beast and worshipped his image, and they were unrepentant, and that this had to be occurring after the beast was revealed and after the mark of the beast had been fully implemented.
Next time I hope to examine the scriptures in regards to more of the timing of the events of the great tribulation and the 7 trumpets and whether the Bible shows us if the 7th trumpet is the last trumpet... or not.
In the meantime, keep looking up (I'll explore that phrase in a future post as well).
Dear Susan, Thank you for the thought-provoking post on this important topic. As you say, "wrath" in this context typically means the Great Tribulation, also known as the time of Jacob's trouble because God uses it primarily to deal with the nation of Israel. A compelling argument for the pre-Trib rapture is the opening chapters of Revelation, in which Jesus Christ writes letters to the seven churches. But once John enters Heaven, as the church will at the Rapture, the church is mentioned no more as John describes the events of the Tribulation. Also, if the church were not raptured until after the Tribulation, we would ascend to Heaven in our glorified bodies just to turn right around and descend with Christ as His armies at the battle of Armageddon. A pre-trib Rapture allows time in Heaven, during the tribulation on earth, for the bema judgment, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, and the other events involving the church, before we descend for the great battle.
ReplyDeleteGod bless,
Laurie
Hi Laurie, yes I have heard and explored many of the things you bring up and will examine them carefully in future posts with what the Bible shows. Although the pre-trib View is the most popular one, being popular isn’t always evidence of truth, in fact often it is evidence of mass deception. Thanks for sharing your view and for taking time to examine what the scriptures actually say compared with popular tradition.
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