Thursday, 24 July 2014

Questions that Don't Require Answers....

And yet, I'll answer them anyway...on my own turf :) That way I won't keep going in circles with it.

!. the "why did you call me a hater?" question.

I was simply showing that you yourself "hate" Christians by using your definition of hate (not agreeing with them) that if you were honest you would see how you give yourself more leeway as to what you see in others as hatred directed towards you. That you wish to make it more than that is up to you....

2. More about God's love (and what atheists see as the lack of God's love...or God's apathy perhaps?) and about man's love for wife, children, etc. 

I'm surprised that I get asked this question by someone who has had training to hold a job as a pastor. I have to bring up the fact that this shows lack of proper education or perhaps a lack of comprehension on your part because this is Bible 101 for pastors. C.S. Lewis has a great little book entitled "The Four Loves" which breaks this down very nicely.

If you really want to know the answer to this and many other questions God ultimately is the one who knows them all best (but I know you don't like that answer). The alternative is to keep thinking only you are right and "if there is a God He is wrong"...good luck with that one. You will have eternity all by yourself thinking you are the most correct and it still won't do you any good.

Bruce you have one chance at a final question/rebuttal and then I'll shut the comments down because I see how these things deteriorate, and I'm not having that here. We are not going to play the endless circle of meaningless questions to show "I am right and Christians are stupid" here. Sorry if that upsets you.


  1. "If you really want to know the answer to this and many other questions God ultimately is the one who knows them all best..."

    Even if I assume (for the sake of argument) that you're right about that, it still isn't much help if God doesn't answer. Now, you can tell me that He said everything He needed to say in the Bible, but given that there something like 33,000 different denominations of Christians in the United States alone (not to mention the differences of opinion within any given denomination), the message of the Bible cannot possibly be as clear as you say it is. If it was, we wouldn't need pastors, priests, or ministers in the first place.

    Again, I'm not saying you shouldn't believe that the Bible is divine, inspired, etc. But can you at least see how some of us, looking at it from the outside, might reasonably conclude that it isn't?

    1. Indeed Michael, and the Bible agrees with you:

      1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
      1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
      1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
      1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
      1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
      1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

      Yet we do have enough information to lead us in the right direction, the same person who wrote the letters to the Corinthian church also wrote to the Roman church (Romans ch 1) that God has given enough clues and evidence in this world for us to know that He exists...and the Bible has doctrines that are so against our natural desires and inclinations we wouldn't make it up to read the way it does...we couldn't. But I can tell you that God did change me from the inside out in a way that I couldn't do...and I know there are those who will say the same thing and then eventually fall away and which Jesus also discussed in the parable of the four soils I mentioned to you previously.

      You would think that means we should know everything, it doesn't mean that. You have to take it all together, and some people will take it as the Bible contradicting itself. That isn't the case. It is much more complex than either/or and black/white, although many will simplify it that way to make it easier for our limited comprehension ability (yes I admit mine readily) to take in. If you have children you know that the advice you give one day does not always follow in every situation, some situations require soft words and some require swift actions to remove the child from eminent danger. It's sort of like that.

      I can tell you it is something miraculous that God does beyond my ability to do for myself, and yet however there is also an element of responsibility (think on that word: ability to respond) that I have some control over. I know the things God has done for me, and I can be selfish and say that it doesn't mean anything at all, or I can be grateful for what He has done. I choose the latter and whether in sickness or in health, whether everything gets stripped from me as it was for Job, I know that I cannot cause my body to live, cause it to awaken from sleep every day, for another chance to live a life of gratitude.

      Even if I were in agony of the worst possible disease, or suffering in a jail cell for a crime I didn't commit, I know eventually I will die anyway, and God, the God who gave me life to begin with, has promised me better things, but those better things come only under the conditions He sets. It is all His creation, so He gets to make the rules, not me.

      It's kinda like this: I get to make the rules for my house. If it gets full of termites and blighted with a fungus that makes the home unlivable or poisonous, I can choose to destroy the house, you wouldn't be the one to choose that for me. So it is with God's house (earth) and when He cleans house, it'll be His way, and it'll be the perfect way regardless of what anyone else thinks about it. And yes there is a hell, and yes it is right that some (many?) people will go there, because hell is a place where people can be without God's blessings, which people like Bruce says he wants. He wants God out of his life. That is hell, and many will choose it, and God will give them exactly that.

      I will leave the comments open so Bruce has a chance to respond if he wishes.

    2. I'm going to step back out of the conversation; I don't think either of us really has anything to add to each other, and if Bruce does respond here, well, I don't want to put you in a position where you're trying to answer two people at once.

    3. Thanks :)

      I did want to say a bit more about "the mind of Christ". I know that everyone will have their opinions...and there is also that one can find out more by studying the original Greek, which I haven't done so I have a less than fully investigated opinion on it as well...and then there is the truth which will blow everyone's opinions out of the water anyway. My thoughts on it at this point is that I have discernment ability to know when something is "of Christ" or "anti (against or in conflict with) Christ". That is as far as my understanding on that goes at this time.

      I hope you will one day find a desire, as C.S. Lewis did. He was an atheist who came to Christ through his human logic rather than emotional ecstasies (I was somewhat in between the two). Jesus did promise if your desire is true you will find Him. It happens on His timetable, He makes the rules, and in the end we will see it was for our benefit, not His.

  2. You are kidding right?

  3. Hi Susan,

    ' I know when something is "of Christ" or anti (against or in conflict with) Christ" '.

    How do you know? Is this the subjective leading of the Holy Spirit or the objectivity of the Word of God or both?

    How do you know that you have discernment ability? What gives you the edge in discernment over top line biblical scholars in their biblical analysis?

    Does the meaning of the bible change if you have a subjective leading of the Holy Spirit? Does the liberal biblical scholar lack discernment? How is the meaning of the text any different when one examines the the text utilizing historical critical techniques?

    Did you know that most top flight biblical and theological scholars see a diversity of views in the NT on Jesus. So which one do you think is biblical and why?

    I hope that you are able to help me out on these issues, given your discernment abilities.

    John Arthur

  4. Bruce Gerencser No I wasn't

    John Arthur

    No I am not omniscient neither are even the brightest of the brightest scholar in any field. Having discernment is given by the Holy Spirit. If you read (and understand) the above passage 2 Corinthians chapter 2, you have a sense of what I'm talking about. God gives abilities as the need arises, it comes as a steady stream from Him, and He never contradicts Himself, although it might seem that way to us. You will also get a sense of it in the book of Ecclesiastes where the writer (many think it's Solomon) says there is a time to every purpose. Yes there are many Bible scholars that know a lot more than I do. Yes God does reward diligent study with greater understanding. And we won't understand it all until we are on the other side of the end of our mortal existence, even the top flight biblical and theological scholars will then understand where they fell short. No I do not hold “to subjective leadings” of the Holy Spirit because it is always correct by the Bible and if it is not it is an errant spirit, hence the need for discernment.

    And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
    ... to another discerning of spirits 1 Corinthians 12:6,10b

    I have no trouble admitting my shortcomings and that I have the tendency toward hypocrisy. I am human. I need saving just like anyone else. I've noticed that many atheists have trouble admitting their shortcomings.