The Church and The Great Tribulation (Rapture Thoughts part 5)

 Photo I took a couple years ago...

I've heard it said that because the great tribulation is also called "the time of Jacob's Trouble" it means the church is not present during the great tribulation. I want to hear what the Bible says about it and see if that is indeed what the Bible tells us.

Those who hold to the pre-trib version of eschatology will say that the elect mentioned in Matthew chapter 24 cannot be Christians but must be Jews that convert to become Christians after the Church has been raptured away prior to the beginning of the great tribulation. So let's examine the word elect in the rest of the New Testament to see if it only refers to converted Jews only.

First let's look at the word "elect". The Greek word is eklektos which comes from a word meaning selected  and is by implication "favourite" or "chosen". It is used a great many times in the new testament. Jesus uses this word, and He of course spoke with Jews, and the Jews today are still referred to as "the chosen people", but does that therefore mean it exclusively refers to only Jewish people?

In Matthew 24 Jesus tells His closest disciples this when they  ask Him about the end of the age:

Matthew 24:24, 29-31  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect....
  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.   And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Other places that this exact same Greek word is used the Bible is directing its admonition to all believers:

 Colossians 3:12  Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

and here in this next verse, Paul who is called the apostle to the Gentiles says to Titus:

Titus 1:1  Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Was Titus Jewish? According to Answers.com:

Where is Titus in The Bible from? 

As per Harper's Bible Dictionary (1954) pg. 765 "Titus, whose home was probably in Antioch or its neighborhood, was born of Gentile parents (Gal 2:3) and was a convert of Paul (Tit 1:4)". 

Also it is said of the saints mentioned in the book of Revelation that they are not Gentiles, but Jews that convert after the rapture because the word "church" only appears up to chapter 4 of the book. Does the Bible say that the term saints only applies to Jewish converts?

 Revelation 5:8  And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

 Revelation 11:18  And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 Revelation 13:7  And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

 Revelation 13:7-10  And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.   And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.   If any man have an ear, let him hear.   He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. 

In fact, in the new testament the word "saints" every reference is always to the church....but according to the pre-trib tradition it changes to mean "Jewish converts to Jesus after the rapture of the Church" after chapter 4 of the book of Revelation begins and then magically again becomes all believers including the church after Jesus returns.

This is the verse that mentions what happens at the end of the millenium:

Revelation 20:9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

So are the saints mentioned in Revelation 20 only Jewish converts from the tribulation period? Or is the church counted in with those saints...? and if so, why isn't the word church now so stated?

Anyway, these are some things to ponder and bring before the Lord in all honesty, wanting the truth only, not man's traditions or wishes or fears dominating one's eschatology. In Jesus we have nothing to fear because if Jesus is for us who can be against us? They can kill our bodies but not our souls. Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus.

In my next post I shall share a video that tells even more about the problems with the pre-trib position, stating it much more concisely than I have done here. I hope that you will give all these things serious consideration, having the love of the real and whole truth always as the final reason for what we believe.

Corrie Ten Boom (Rapture Thoughts part 4)

Corrie Ten Boom suffered terribly during the second world war. She watched her dear sister suffer terribly and die in a Nazi camp. By God's grace she survived the terrible cruelty of that time. Years later she learned of the pre-trib rapture theory sweeping into the church. It concerned her greatly, especially after the trouble she had suffered. She realized that such a teaching would have weakened her and made her ill-prepared for what she was to suffer.

In Corrie's words:


There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this.  These are some of the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days.  Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world.  I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution.
In China, the Christians were told, “Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated — raptured.”  Then came a terrible persecution.  Millions of Christians were tortured to death.  Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly,

We have failed.  We should have made the people strong for persecution rather than telling them Jesus would come first.  Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution, how to stand when the tribulation comes — to stand and not faint.

I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ.  We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation.  There is no way to escape it.  We are next.
 http://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/rapture/corrie.html
  

I agree with Corrie. Many Christians in North America today think they are going to escape the coming tribulation, and that the relatively smooth and easy life they have been blessed to live will continue as it is until the Lord quickly and easily removes His loved ones before any suffering comes their way. They think a loving God would not allow true Christians to suffer, when the Bible clearly warns us that we, like He, will suffer great persecution at the hands of those who hate the Lord. Christians of the west have grown soft and flabby in their faith, relying on an easy way when the Bible warns that the narrow way is not easy at all.

A website that I like that has many articles about the post tribulation rapture position is located here:


http://endtimepilgrim.org/


I'm not saying I agree with everything they say but as much as they agree with the Bible I also agree with them. We need to be ready for whatever is ahead for us. Of course it is possible that you and I might die tomorrow and escape the terrible days yet ahead. It is also possible that the pretrib rapture position is the correct one and if so, thank the Lord! That would be wonderful. BUT if the post trib position is correct and many Christians who are depending on a pretrib rapture instead of completely being dependant on the Lord through thick and thin come what may, might find their faith was grown and nurtured on a flabby diet of false hope and because their faith was built on a teaching and not on Jesus Himself, might not have been regenerated at all not having fully surrendered to His will, come what may. Those will fall away when they see the "man of sin", the antichrist, believing they have been forsaken by God because He didn't do as they were promised. I pray that isn't you, dear friend reading this. Please put your entire trust on what Jesus wills for your life, whatever that may entail, and trust that He will see you through just like He was with Shadrach, Meshach and Abbednego when they went through fire.

Matthew 24 (Rapture Thoughts part 3)

I am familiar with the pre trib idea that Matthew chapter 24 is "only for the Jews" however, I hope this blog posting will cause some to reconsider this notion as we compare Matthew 24 to the "rapture passages” in 1st and 2nd Thessalonians.

I saw a chart on a youtube video which I snapped with a screen save but the image was barely readable because it was so blurry. I hoped to find it at the webpage that was provided at the bottom of the chart but was unable to locate it. I will provide a link to the website at the bottom of this post and if you find you would like to try to hunt it down, you can be able to do so.

The chart compared a list of topics that are found in both sections so I shall post each topic with the verses that pertain to these things:


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Christ is the source of the information given 
Matthew 24:3-4  /  1 Thessalonians 4:15

Warning given: Do Not Be Deceived 
Matthew 24:4  /  2 Thessalonians 2:3


Subject of the Parousia
Matthew 24: 3, 27, 37, 39   /   1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1


Antichrist's Temple Activity
Matthew 24: 15  /  2 Thessalonians 2:4


Opposition by Antichrist,
Matthew 24:21, 22  /  2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 & v.9


Deceiving Signs & Wonders
Matthew 24:24  /   2Thessalonians 2:9


Apostasy of Many
Matthew 24:9-12  /  2 Thessalonians 2:3


Elect, Alive, and Survive
Matthew 24:22  /  1 Thessalonians 4:15, 17


Persecution Cut Short 
Matthew 24: 22, 29-31  /  2 Thessalonians 1:6-7; & 2:8


Initiation of the Parousia
Matthew 24: 27, & v. 30  /  1 Thessalonians 4:15


Parousia Comes After Appearance of the Antichrist
Matthew 24:29-30  /  2 Thessalonians 2:8

Parousia is Seen by All
Matthew 24:27-30  /  1 Thessalonians 4:16; & 2 Thessalonians 2:8

Jesus Comes in the Clouds
Matthew 24:30   /   1 Thessalonians 4:17

Angelic Presence With Jesus as He Comes
Matthew 24:31   /    1 Thessalonians :16 ; & 2 Thessalonians 1:7

Trumpet Sounds at His Coming
Matthew 24:31   /   1 Thessalonians 4:16


Gathers His Elect
Matthew 24:31   /   1 Thessalonians 4:17 ; & 2 Thessalonians 2:1

Mentioning of Peace and Safety
Matthew 24:37-41  /   1 Thessalonians 5:3, and 6-7


Mention of "Thief in the Night" 
Matthew 24: 43   /   1 Thessalonians 5:2-3


Warning of Sudden Destruction
Matthew 24: 37-41   /   1 Thessalonians 5:2-3

The Initiation of God's Wrath
Matthew 24:29-30; and 37-39  /   1 Thessalonians 5:1-3


We Are Not in Darkness
Matthew 24:32-33  /   1 Thessalonians 5:4-5


Warning Against Setting a Date of His Returning
Matthew 24:36   /   1 Thessalonians 5:1


Warning to Be Watchful / Expectant
Matthew 24:42-51  /   1 Thessalonians 5:6


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I want to point out a few areas of difference in understanding between pre and post tribbers on a few of the above mentioned topics:

On the topic of Parousia, pre tribbers say this only refers to the rapture which they maintain is a separate event at a separate time from the actual coming of Jesus. This is something I still need to dig into a bit further but the person who made this chart asserts that Parousia is an event that involves both the rapture and second coming happening at the same moment in time. I will do a word study on this in the next post.

Regarding the apostasy of many mentioned above....one cannot be truly born of God and apostasize (imo from many verses in the Bible) therefore I see this as many having a very shallow belief in Jesus that did not lead to the true conversion of the Spirit which Jesus called "born of the Spirit". One can have a "said faith" without having undergone the Spiritual transformation by the power of God, which is also referred to in scripture as being sealed by God.

Regarding the word tribulation being equal with the wrath of God (by pre tribbers). Post tribbers assert tribulation is not the same as the wrath of God. This requires careful study and discernment from the Holy Spirit.


Regarding Matthew 24 only being directed to nonChristian Jews who will still be here after the rapture... the video I watched which provided me the above list was narrated by Chris White. He felt that the fact that there was so much in common between the letters to Thessalonica and Matthew 24 give indication that Paul was referring to the words of Jesus as He spoke to His disciples recorded (later? not sure of that...but they still knew of this Olivet Discourse from apostles who were in attendance and were first hand witnesses of these sayings of Jesus, and who were still alive and with them) in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. The letters written to Thessalonica were written to Gentiles who converted to Jesus, the Church, aka the Elect. Pre tribbers like to say that the word "elect" only refers to Jews, however that isn't consistent with the rest of the NT which was written to Gentiles who were called "the elect".