First off, let me begin by saying that I don't mean to offend anyone who visits and thinks this is an attack on their beliefs. That is not my intention. I was going to post a picture with this blog entry, but I decided not to because I thought that perhaps it would be interpreted as a mocking gesture, and I certainly don't mean it that way at all. I want us all, me included, to challenge any beliefs that might trip us up in the long run, after all, eternity is a very long time, to hold onto wrong beliefs stubbornly out of wanting to be right regardless of whether we actually are. I hope we can all keep reexamining what we believe and why, and have Jesus search our thoughts and our hearts to really see if it is true with what He wants us to understand about Him. You might look at this article and think it is total rubbish, and that is ok too, but please give it an honest going over before you decide that, and ask Jesus to reveal to you if you indeed have been led astray with a false belief system which did not originate from Him at all.
Is the Pretrib doctrine "another gospel"?
Four changes that were made to support the pretrib doctrine:
1) a second Gospel, the Gospel of the Kingdom, which is distinguished from the Gospel of Grace.
2) a second group of saints, called “Tribulation saints,” who are not the pretrib saints who (they say) have been taken out and will not be present during the Tribulation.
3) a second group of “the elect,” who constitute those “redeemed during the Tribulation,” as opposed to the elect, who are the Church.
4) another Second Coming, which is secret, invisible, seen only by those who are supposedly taken out prior to the Tribulation. This first Second Coming is not only invisible to “those who dwell upon the earth”; it is invisible to the honest, unbiased Bible student as well.
Read the article that I excerpted (and shortened) above from:
http://www.pearlofgreatvalue.com/FourFabrications.php
Ok, it's obvious that I don't buy this doctrine at all. There are many problems when you really dig into scripture, and this remake falls apart because like the above shows, you have to make categories that just aren't supported by the actual text and which then leads to further "reading into" the scriptures things that just are not there.
I do believe that there will be many who are "taken away" prior to the Great Tribulation, by death. I think that Jesus knows who can handle what will happen during that time, and will strengthen them to do His will during that time. Many will die violent deaths like the early Christians of Jesus and the Apostle Paul's times when they were executed in the public arenas or lit on fire to light the way for Nero's ego. Many Christians are dying today, of heart conditions, or other health problems, or old age. They are being removed prior to the Great Tribulation. Could Jesus keep them alive to live and see what happens during that time? Sure He could...He can do anything, He could even have 2 second comings or a second coming in 2 parts as some people call it. But Jesus clearly states that when He comes EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM. He also warned about those who will say that He will come in secret or out in the desert, and not to believe them.
I do agree that certain parts of the Bible were specifically written to Jewish believers, such as the book of Hebrews...but that doesn't then mean that it has nothing in it for us. The book of Hebrews talks about alot of things that were specific to the Jewish way of life, that they could really relate to, so it made the teachings very accessible for them to apply to the things that they encountered in their every day normal way of life...and we could also learn from the book of Hebrews (a tough read, for sure), if we take the time to study it all out, so we too can learn from the lessons that specifically used examples from the Hebrew culture of Jesus' day. I'm using that as an example of how teachings were Hebrew specific, but available to Gentiles (the Church included here) as well.
Let us be sober minded and not have our ears tickled with doctrines that make an easy escape our rule for living. Let us remember what Jesus said about the persecution He suffered and that those who follow Him will also likewise suffer intense persecution. For us, that time of persecution has not yet arrived, but I believe it will be upon us soon. Let us be ready, like the wise virgins who had oil in their lamps, and were prepared for come what may, rather than only wanting to believe in an easy way out.
Susan,
ReplyDeleteI'm glad you're searching out doctrines. It's important to also study the beliefs of the person on whom you are basing your opinion. Richard Kirby was a "religious futurist". His own website says, "Look at the story of your own religion, your own denomination, and ask how you can improve its story -- by God's grace. It's a story, a history, which includes you who is studying it. You are not here to make it worse; and you cannot leave it alone. You can make it better. You can make a better future religion.'
Man making religion better means it is a man-made religion. Not God's. He also says:
"Religious futures scholarship focuses on predictable occurrences in the future of religion, based on present observable trends, and past trends in religion, compounded by expectations of wild cards or quantum leaps, in the context of society's future as a whole, ranging from science to technology. What kind of science and technology excites you, what kind worries you? Get involved in bringing religious values to the future of these sciences and technologies!"
As to his "four fabrications" He makes a distinction between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven but they are one and the same. More here
http://www.gotquestions.org/kingdom-heaven-God.html
Paul explained the rapture several times in Thessalonians and Corinthians & was also hinted of by Jesus in John 14:3 & mentioned in Isaiah 26:19. It's different than the Second Coming. In the rapture, we're called by Jesus up to Him in the air. In the SC, we return to earth with Jesus.
The reason He calls out the church age believers from before the tribulation is so that He does not contradict himself. The Tribulation has 6 purposes, described in Dan 9:24. One is to atone for sins and another is to finish the transgression. In other words, punish the world for their unbelief and for their sins. Yet Paul said we are not appointed to wrath (1 Thess 5:9) and our sins are forgotten. (Col 2:13-14). Why would He forgive us, forget our sins, and then punish us for them? He would not.
Romans 11:25 shows us that he has a certain number in mind for His church. When that number is filled, He will call us out and the return His attention to Israel. (Acts 15:15-17).
Remember, God decreed a certain number of years for the Old testament times from the time of the decree (Dan 9:24-26). There are still 7 years left to go. When the rapture happens, those 7 years resume, That is why the Jews in the tribulation resume sacrifices. The Church is gone, and with us, the age of Grace. The age of Law finishes its 7 years (Dan 9:24).
There are different names for saints. There are the OT, NT saints which are the body of Christ, and Tribulation saints who come to believe during that terrible time (Rev 6:9-11, and that number of saints have a certain number too, and Rev 20:4) and then there will be people coming to belief during the Millennium that begins after the Second Coming. Anyone who comes to faith in Jesus is "the elect" we just life at different times and come to faith in different timings, for example, OT faith looked FORWARD to the Messiah who will come, Church Age believers look BACK to the Messiah that had come but it is all belief in one Messiah as the only way.
Your guy Kirby has an incomplete understanding of who 'the elect' are, a non-understanding of the Kingdom Gospel, an unawareness of who the saints are (believers across all ages) and he misses the mark on what the Second Coming is. Yes, there is only one second coming, the rapture is not a coming but a calling. Jesus doesn't touch earth in the rapture, He just closes the church age when His quota is filled (Rom 11:25) and begins the judgments. The church will not be here when He punishes the earth for their sins.
this is a very brief overview, but the point I'd like to impress most is two fold
--watch out whom you base opinions on
--use scripture to support your contentions.
Thank you for this post,as much as I would love to believe in the rapture,not as much for myself as for those who are more deserving,especially the little children,I never really have. So thank you for having the courage to speak your mind,and what I consider the truth ! Blessings Jane
ReplyDeleteHi Elizabeth,
ReplyDeleteYou are right that I do not know Richard Kirby or all of his beliefs, but truth be known if I examine anyone long enough I will usually find SOMETHING that I'll disagree with them about, sheesh...
About the rapture, I agree that there will be one, I just disagree on the timing. I do agree with Richard Kirby that it will be at the 7th trumpet. I've heard the pretrib arguments of why they think that is incorrect, but I just don't agree with their arguments.
I also agree that there have been saints in every age and dispensation, however, that doesn't make different saints to be lumped into different saint categories. I do agree that there will be saints during the great tribulation, but disagree that they can only be people that were saved during the great tribulation. I agree that the "age of grace" is passing, but that will mean that the saints will be tortured and killed like the Christians were in China during the problems in Tienanmen Square, and the easy time that the Church is currently enjoying will be no more.
I still have alot more studying to do on this topic, I will agree with you on that too. The pretrib doctrine never sat well with me from my own reading of the Bible. I tried to make the things that you talk about fit the way you say they do, but for me it's stretching the truth to try to make myself believe that God would be proving Himself hateful if He made Christians go through what the early Christians did. I don't believe that line of thinking, hence I cannot make that kind of philosophy fit into what the Bible actually says. I will continue to search it all out and ask the Lord to guide me to all truth, as He meant for us to know it, though. Thanks for your thoughts and voicing your concerns from the pretrib perspective. :)
Hi Jane,
When pretribbers tried explaining their doctrine to me when I was a newbie in Jesus, I was thoroughly confused about it, and the more I tried to make it fit what the Bible actually said the more confused I got. Then I found that not all Christians believed in "pretrib rapture". The more I study it out the more convinced I become that the pretrib rapture theory is fraudulent, and places faith on the timing of an event more-so than it puts full faith on Jesus. Whatever happens and however God orders it to be, it will all be for His glory, not ours. He doesn't owe us anything. We are no more worthy to escape the terrible things to come than the early saints of Peter and Paul's day were when they were fed to the lions or killed by gladiators in front of cheering and mocking crowds of bloodthirsty spectators. I think alot of Christians will be removed through deaths (accidental, health, old age, etc) prior to the great tribulation, not a "secret rapture". The ones the Lord does allow to live during that time, He will strengthen to meet the challenges of those times, whether there is torture, imprisonment (like the apostles had to endure) or other terrible things, God will give grace sufficient to the situation as it is needed. There are terrible times ahead, and I personally believe we are on the brink of finding out exactly what will be happening and may even learn who the antichrist is real soon. These are exciting and terrible times, but we have Jesus to see us through just like Shadrack, Meshach, and Abedneggo had a holy companion in the fiery furnace.
Thank you both for sharing your thoughts, I pray the Lord's strength, wisdom and guidance through the perilous times to come.
Susan, the 7th trumpet of the judgments have nothing to do with the last trump, any more than it does with the trumpet of Jericho. The last trump does, however, refer to the trumpet of God mentioned in 1 Thes. 4:16. If you would like some information on the last trump vs the 7th trump form someone more biblically connected than Mr Kirby, I kindly offer you this piece from jackKelley
ReplyDeletehttp://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/whats-the-so-called-last-trump/
it is important to look at the beliefs of whom you are quoting because we are supposed to practice discernment. To base an opinion about a doctrine of the bible from someone who believes that man can influence the religion and was in many other ways, unbibical, is undiscerning at least and dangerous at best. I beg you not to be dismissive of that point.
If you disagree with the timing of the rapture then it's hard to reconcile that God forgave us our sins and said He has forgotten them but is punishing people for sins in the Tribulation as Dan 9:24 says and also Rev 6:17
In Revelation 3:10, Christ promises to deliver believers from the “hour of trial” that is going to come upon the earth.
I don't understand this of what you said, "I do agree that there will be saints during the great tribulation, but disagree that they can only be people that were saved during the great tribulation." People who are saved in the Tribulation are known as Tribulation saints. It is just a name, though. A believer is a believer, but the time in which they came to belief determines their work in the Millennium and eternity. For ex, Tribulation saints worship the Lord night and day in the temple, (Rev 7:15) Church age saint rule and reign with Jesus for eternity. Some of the saints are never called priests and others are never called kings. Some are judges. See here:
"Rev. 20:6 says the priests of God and of Christ who will reign with Jesus are part of the first resurrection. The First Resurrection includes all believers of all time. Jesus was the first (1 Cor. 15:20) then comes the Church (1 Thes. 4:16-17), and finally tribulation believers (Rev. 20:4) and Israel (Daniel 12:2). Of these only the church is called kings and priests who rule and reign with the Lord. Some tribulation martyrs serve God in His temple but are never called priests (Rev. 7:15) while others reign with Him but are never called kings (Rev. 20:4) I believe they serve in an official capacity subordinate to the Church." http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/judges-kings-and-priests/
If you have questions about things I offer you some good, bible-based resources for answers:
GotQuestions.org
Christian Research and Apologetics Ministry Carm.org
Hi Elizabeth,
ReplyDeleteSee the other blog entry on the signs and wonders of the 1800's for my comment there also. If you want me to go into more detail than I give in these two comments, it would take alot more typing and time, which I can do at a later time, if you want me to.
I posed a question to you in my comment, and also quoted the scriptures about the 7 trumpets.
I also I disagree with your referencing the scriptures that you use to apply to what you say here:
If you disagree with the timing of the rapture then it's hard to reconcile that God forgave us our sins and said He has forgotten them but is punishing people for sins in the Tribulation as Dan 9:24 says and also Rev 6:17
Daniel 9:24
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Here the Bible says that it is to "finish the transgression" in other words He will put an end to it, and an end to sinning, not punishing for it.
Rev. 6:17
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
This is taken out of context. As I explain in the other comment, the book of Revelation is a vision and it goes back and forth a little, covering alot of things that are happening, and not always following the timeline sequentially in order. Reading this passage in context:
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
This is speaking judgment against the people that want power and only want this world, such as the kings, great men, rich men, captains, etc. This is talking about wrath, which occurs after the 7th trumpet, when the last 7 angels pour their bowls on the earth (Rev ch 15)
If you want me to try to help you sort out more of your comments, please let me know.
Blessings to you. :)