Indoctrinated or Saved...What is the Difference?

In the previous post I bring up the conversation that I had with an atheist. He makes the claim that having faith as a Christian is the same thing as having been indoctrinated into any religion. My assertion is that the two aren't even apples and oranges, more like apples and rocks.

To give a very simple example of the difference lets examine the life of the Apostle Paul. Before he was saved he was indoctrinated as an orthodox Pharisaical Jew. After Jesus knocked him off his high horse

Conversation with an Atheist

Recently I got into a discussion in the comments section of this post. I wanted to post on it because I do think others who happen to wander here might benefit from it. I want to preface this conversation with the most excellent advice from the Bible that says to avoid all foolish arguments. To engage in a moral or theological discussion with an atheist most definitely falls in that category. We have no foundation for common ground where we can even attempt a reasonable discussion because he has completely different meanings for anything I have to say, thereby effectively placing a monkey wrench into the machinery of any useful dialogue. Pussy-footing around the facts isn't my style, if something needs to be said, I believe it should just be said without a lot of beating around the bush. That is what I enjoy about the writings of the Apostle Paul. Anyway, I do hope he eventually sees that he is headed for ultimate and eternal ruin, but it is beyond me how to get that across to him. Boomslang presents himself as a former or fallen away Christian. There's no such thing. Either he was never saved and he needs to become saved (if he ever hopes to avoid the thing he says he no longer believes in i.e. hell) or the Lord will eventually bring him back to the fold from where he has strayed.

Ok, here's the evidence for the Bible's wisdom in avoiding discussions with

Happy Thankful Giving :)

Contradictions??? or all just part of God's immense and perfect plan for the elect? God knows it all perfectly, we only see in part...(1 Corinthians 13:12)

A time for every purpose under heaven:

A time to be born,
And a time to die;
A time to plant,
And a time to pluck what is planted;
A time to kill,
And a time to heal;
time to break down,
And a time to build up;
A time to weep,
And a time to laugh;
time to mourn,
And a time to dance;
A time to cast away stones,
And a time to gather stones;
A time to embrace,...

Can a Truly Saved Person Fall Away? Part 4 (last installment, I think)

Finally, I have to add to this series THE most important part, that I don't think I stressed enough...(I don't think I really stressed it all all, in fact)

The FACT that someone who is truly saved CANNOT fall away gives us the most hope. If the Lord has you in His sights it doesn't matter what you do or don't do, have done, or will do...because it is He who saves you, not we ourselves.

We can get derailed or temporarily deceived...we can say stupid things and be off doctrinally, and I'm not recommending that of course; it can bring harm to oneself and to others who can likewise become derailed by bad doctrine that gets passed along. And if you aren't saved yet (YET!!!) but the Lord has you in His sights and is working the means to draw you in, there is no escaping His love (and why would you want to!!???) If you truly do desire Him with your whole heart, it is He who put that desire into you, and He will see that to it's proper conclusion, not because you do anything so wonderful, but because HE IS THAT WONDERFUL.

Can a Truly Saved Person Fall Away? Part 3

This has to do with the falling away of a person by means of mixing truth with untruth. This person truly believes he or she was saved but now gives in to doctrines of demons who mix truth with lies. This was the devil's trick from the beginning, wasn't it? He got Eve to believe his trickery and caused her to believe him over God the true Creator, making her think his ideas and temptation was more fair, more in line with what she truly deserved. And what did it lead to? It led to her and her husband's undoing.

Here is an article that I found which explains this more fully, and again examines the phenomenon we are seeing of this great falling away that is happening today:


 Excerpt:

If someone is not standing in biblical truth they are not standing in Christ and are not being sanctified unto God.

We therefore see that in the Last Days those not loving doctrinal truth really do not love Jesus Christ, as one is the barometer of the other. Such unsaved people will be easily taken in by the antichrist (as indeed they are already under the influence of what theologians and philosophers call by the German term the zeitgeist or 'spirit of the age' which is the spirit of anti Christ -1 John 2:15-18). But this text shows us that it also includes

Can a Truly Saved Person Fall Away Part 2

The abbreviated and direct answer is "no"

There is a remnant that is always talked about in the scriptures, and when reading the Bible the whole of it needs to be considered instead of dissecting it's parts and only taking what you want and throwing out the rest. However even if a person does THAT there are essentials that will always remain in the person who is born of the Spirit of God. The essentials:

1. God alone is true and everyone else is a liar (if you must chose between one or the other). We all err, no one gets it perfect here, so if there is error it would be on the side of man getting it wrong, not God.

2. Jesus came into this world, fully God made flesh, to die for our sins, and was resurrected from the dead on the third day. As He was resurrected so will He resurrect to eternal life those who are found in Him.

3. There is a hell which is eternal separation from God. We all were destined for it. God's grace provided one way to escape it. There is no other way except the way He has provided, Jesus sacrifice for our sins. Our sins would send us all to hell. His blood pays the ransom for that inevitable ending to be circumvented.

If anyone says they believed those 3 things above "at one time" but believe it no more, they never truly believed it. They may have thought they did, in a group think kind of way, by attending church, singing the songs, praying, REALLY PRAYING for forgiveness....however there is a surrender involved

LIHOP or MIHOP

I ran across those acronyms yesterday for the first time, so I had to Google it and found a nice breakdown of what it means here.

My position is "LIHOP plus". Some wonder why anyone would spend so much time talking and wondering about all this at all...

Predictive Programming

Interesting topic for me, Tom Secker does have some good things to say in regards to how the different medias often tell the news before it happens (not just with 9/11). About 30 minutes in they talk about something that I've been concerned about; that movies and television series often steer the viewer to root for the bad guy (as in "Prison Break" for an example), or make the hero of the story an amoral sociopath whose evil deeds of murder and mayhem have a justifiable reason behind them which justify the means of his otherwise unacceptable behavior.

Smells Like the Human Spirit

Some interesting conversations on this Youtube channel. I wouldn't say they are Christian, the topics that they talk about look at what is going on in the world from a humanistic perspective. I don't avoid all info that disagrees with what I think, or what I believe from the scriptures. I look at everything with my feet firmly planted on God's word. I do think it is good to hear what is going on here on this planet from various perspectives with God's omnipotence always in the forefront of our thinking. Some only want to hear these things with an idea of starting or joining some movement or coalition that can change things. I just look at this like I would look at a thermometer, to get a gauge of where we are at on God's timetable. Things will happen just as the Lord knew they would, just as He said they would. We need to be aware and pray and trust the Lord.

Smells Like the Human Spirit Channel

Fear, Faith, and Love

Proverbs 9:10  The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.(KJV)

There are many misconceptions about our God. We want to make Him into our image, our ideas about what is loving and true, instead of coming to Him truly we still hold that little portion back that says "I know this better than He does".

What is "the FEAR of the Lord"? Why should we fear Him? He is SUPPOSED to be loving, so how can this be true at all?

The wisdom of the proverbs gives us that this fear is a beginning point.

Not Everyone Who Says "Lord, Lord"...

Mat 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24  Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26  And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.(KJV)


These are hard words. Does a "Loving God" reject those who come before Him and say: "Lord, Lord"? Apparently He will and He does, if you believe what Jesus says, and if you don't believe it and yet say you are saved, you are exactly the one He is talking about here, who is only speaking empty words, and pretends to love Him and believe Him, and yet loves himself and the things of this world more than His words, His love, His price at His terms. Those are the ones who say they love Him and yet Jesus can see into their hearts, He knows the truth, and if they confess the truth of their error, and truly submit to the truth of the fact that no one comes to the Father unless they have left all (their love of the things of this world that they loved more than God) to follow Jesus, then Jesus gives us a hundred fold of what we thought we had to give up.

But there are many who hang on to this world, who want to straddle the fence, and love this world and Jesus equally. Jesus said it cannot be done. He said "You cannot serve God and Mammon".

Luk 16:13  No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Luk 16:14  And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Luk 16:15  And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. (KJV)

When Jesus taught the multitudes, many followed Him to get stuff, to get a healing, to get food, and Jesus understood that, and He provided, but when He confronted them about the truth of the selfishness of their seeking, many stopped following Him:

 Joh 6:26  Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
Joh 6:27  Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
Joh 6:28  Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (KJV)

Their hearts were not changed, they didn't actually see the true miracle of who Jesus was and is, but only wanted to satisfy their belly and their curiosity, and their flesh. Jesus then tells them about Himself being the bread of Life, (this passage is completely misunderstood by Roman Catholics, sorry), and then the Bible tells us:

Joh 6:61  When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
Joh 6:62  What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Joh 6:64  But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Joh 6:65  And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Joh 6:66  From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
(KJV)

Sobering words, it is a gift, and to say "That isn't loving" doesn't understand true love. He gives abundantly, but many reject it, and then blame Him for their rejection of Him. It is a gift, who throws a gift back at the giver and says "This isn't the kind of gift I wanted! This isn't the way I wanted it to be!"?

 His gift is given to all, but not all want it, in fact no one wants it, at first, because it is contrary to our flesh. But God will draw His own to Himself, and they won't be able to boast that they did anything, even the choosing of Him is done by Him, so we have nothing to boast before Him. He chooses the lowest, the beggars, also there are the Josephs of Arimethea (which aren't low beggars, but respected people in the community, but their heart is lowly and truly humble)...He sees our hearts, He knows who are His because He created us, He breathed life into us.

The ones who do boast:

Mat 7:22...."Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? "
Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I struggled with this one because I knew that I could do nothing to attain it. I felt it was horrible that I was on the outside unable to come in of my own self, that it was only by God's invitation. I begged the Lord to save me. Even my begging seemed to go nowhere, and I knew that my heart was bad through and through, and that God could not listen to someone as selfish and evil as I, and I like the Caananite woman begged for crumbs from the master's table  (Matthew 15:22-28) or like the woman with the issue of blood who only sought to touch the hem of His garment (Matthew 9:20-22) and was persistent in my looking and seeking for that opening, that day that He would hear me, not because I was good or anything, but seeking His mercy (Luke 18:2-9)...

And yet, if I am sent to hell and it's fires and torments to be there for eternity, I would only be getting what I deserve. If I do find myself there it is just. What is unjust is His mercy. It is true what His enemies say "It is UNFAIR that some don't go to hell and many do"...however it is the upside-down of the fleshy reasoning. It isn't unfair that anyone goes to hell at all, we all deserve no more than hell. The unfair part is that any escape it at all, and that is GRACE.

Can a Truly Saved Person Fall Away?

This is a "once saved always saved" topic that has gotten me into lots of trouble in the past...and I must admit that I still do not fully have a firm handle on the truth about this. In my last post on "the great falling away" I bemoan the fact that I see many who at least call themselves "Christian" are falling away from the faith, and giving room to ideas that I cannot otherwise describe except to call them "doctrines of demons". So...can a person be saved, be transformed by the power of the Almighty God, be born of the Spirit (are all of these terms talking about the same or different aspects of what happens to a person?)....and then do a 180 and walk away from the Bible, from God, from everything that God reveals about Himself, and then turn to empty traditions and futile reasonings which add up to a whole lot of nothing?

As I said, I still don't have a firm grip on how this works, but I rest assured that the Lord fully knows and sees who are His, and He has promised that He will lose none of us.

Joh 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:38  For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39  And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.(KJV)

Whether those who are falling away were never saved to begin with (which is my suspicion) and only put on a show of being a Christian while it was fashionable to do so, or whether they are saved and will truly stand for the truth once the antichrist is revealed; their falling away being a temporary glitch in their walk with the Lord for the purpose of providing entry for the man of sin, is something we have yet to learn as we see it happen in the (near?) future.

In the meantime we need to pay attention to what is going on around us, and yet all-the-while keep our eyes on Jesus. The picture I have is of Peter, stepping out of the boat, and letting the scariness of the wind and the waves (which probably were extremely frightening at that moment in time) divert his attention away from Jesus. When Jesus caused Peter to turn his attention back on Him, Jesus took his hand, and all was well again. We don't have to be so afraid of the wind and the waves that we shut our eyes to everything.We just need to know that Jesus is right there with us, through it all, and that as we see these things unfold, remember that He has already told us that these things would happen.

"Once saved always saved"? Absolutely! Jesus said so, and I believe Him. :)

The Great Falling Away....

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 
 (KJV)


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It has been a bit alarming for me to be seeing what is happening all around me. I see people who call themselves "Christian"  falling away from the faith, accepting their delusions for the truth, thinking that they in their own understanding could be wiser than God, more loving than God, and thinking themselves very capable of discerning the truth about God with their fleshy wisdom. I see them saying that what they see in the Bible are a bunch of contradictions which we are better off not knowing about, that "ignorance is bliss", and that the God of the Bible while claiming to be loving is in actuality very hateful and nothing at all like what is spoken about in 1 Corinthians 13. Wow, what arrogance. Talk about the pot saying to the potter: "It is all YOUR fault! You have designed everything this way! You have designed ME to fail!!!" Shaking the fist at God, although they probably do not realize this is what they are doing and saying. I have to remind myself of the wisdom spoken in the above passage, that I be not soon shaken in my mind because of what I see (or think that I see), and know that in the Lord I am protected from the strong delusion that is right now knocking people over left and right. People are setting themselves up as wise, instead of remembering that we are not anything without the life-spring that comes to us from above. We are dirt, and will return to dirt when we die.

The spark of life, that which animates us, is given by God, and can easily be manipulated and distorted by satan, and we are marred already by the effect of the original fall of Adam and Eve. Eve was much closer to the Lord than any of us are, much more innocent and had a stronger intimate relationship. She was in a daily communion with our Heavenly Father much moreso than any of us presently understand. I think we presently slip in and out of that kind of communion with the Holy Spirit, but our flesh takes over to try to dominate us. And even though Eve was so intimately communing with God, she fell for the devil's tricks.

But getting back to the topic of the falling away, does this current falling away signify that soon we will see "the man of sin"? I personally believe we will, and perhaps we already do see him but just haven't come to the full realization yet that he is "him". When this man of sin forces everyone to take the mark of the beast, that is  (I believe) the unmistakable sign that it is "him"... and that time may soon come.

Sometimes I do find these things alarming, and I do get "shaken in my mind", but then I remember that just by the fact that all these things are foretold about shows us that God is fully aware and in control of it. This fact strengthens me to understand that the Lord is capable to also see to it that even I can die a martyr's death, and continue to be strong to the end...but this is only possible by His strengthening. In my flesh I would not be able to do such a thing. I would "cry uncle" the moment the pain would get too uncomfortable. Just as the apostles asked "Who then is able to be saved" the answer comes from Jesus:

But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Matthew 19:26 (ESV)